Comments on: Stop. You’re Not Going to Break The Format https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:33:21 +0000 hourly 1 By: God https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-17038 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:33:21 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-17038 I am coming, will you be ready ?

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By: Ryan Bushard https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10704 Wed, 16 Feb 2011 06:29:01 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10704 In reply to @Dr_Jeebus.

I disagree due solely to the fact that Dragonstorm you could beat with other decks in the format, the only way to beat that sliver deck in the format was by drafting it, or at the least having it hated hard. Just like every other deck in history there was no other way to beat it than to join it, I only say it wouldnt work again because everyone at the table would be trying to draft it, but thats like saying Academy decks would be bad because everyone in the room was playing them. Again I feel its the one exception to the rule, an you are looking at it from a constructed point of view, from a limited perspective it is literally the only time the format has been play X or lose to X, nothing has even come close ever.

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By: @Dr_Jeebus https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10357 Fri, 11 Feb 2011 03:41:40 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10357 In reply to GRF.

If you've ever taken the SAT's, you should know by now that while all A's are B's, not all B's are necessarily A's. As such, when the format is broken they always ban cards, but when they ban cards the format isn't always broken.

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By: GRF https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10348 Thu, 10 Feb 2011 22:51:58 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10348 What about Hulk Flash? You never mentioned that one. Or Trix, the deck that finally got Necro banned? Missed it, too.

I'm pretty certain that formats have been broken more than just a few times, if your definition of format-breaking is that cards got banned as a result. Those two and Broken Jar, which someone else already mentioned, were just the first that came to my mind. And that's not counting anything before Revised, since all sorts of decks were format-breaking at the time.

Come to think of it, since Vengevine-Survival got Survival banned, would you consider that a deck that broke the format? Lots of cards have been added to the B&R list over the years….

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By: @Dr_Jeebus https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10283 Thu, 10 Feb 2011 02:33:44 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10283 In reply to Pascal.

See? I knew I'd forget one, and Memory Jar is absolutely one. Survival Madness and Thopter Depths were not format breaking.

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By: Pascal https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10257 Wed, 09 Feb 2011 21:50:10 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10257 I agree on the term "breaking a format" being overused, but i would disagree on the number….

"The Broken Jar" by Erik Lauer and Randy Buehler broke the format and was banned pretty much immidiatly…
"Survival Madness" by Caleb Durward
"DarkDepths ThopterFoundry" by Gerry Thompson

Just to name a few single player format breakings 😛

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By: tudor https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10239 Wed, 09 Feb 2011 16:47:10 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10239 I agree with Nicholas: "Also, when people talk about "breaking the format", I think they generally refer to their ability to create a deck that has a very strong percentage against a given field for the next tournament. To this end, something like the UWR deck was insane at the SCG LA event last January"
This actually being the case most of the time I believe that this makes the game more interesting and balance the hive mind principle that online play generated. Although not semantically correct if "breaking" encourages people to think outside the consecrated decks and come up with something new and creative which makes the game more diverse then keep "breaking" it buddy.

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By: Nicholas https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10213 Wed, 09 Feb 2011 04:58:56 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10213 Would you consider Caleb Durward to have broken Legacy last summer in Columbus with his survival deck. I'm sure he collaborated with people and just happened to put up the best finish, but it did result in the most dominant archetype since flash if memory serves.

Also, when people talk about "breaking the format", I think they generally refer to their ability to create a deck that has a very strong percentage against a given field for the next tournament. To this end, something like the UWR deck was insane at the SCG LA event last January, and I think that that deck was a very impressive accomplishment in deck-building and metagaming.

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By: @Dr_Jeebus https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10200 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 22:23:49 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10200 In reply to Ryan Bushard.

You said it yourself: they were more prepared. You also admitted that if there was another event with the same format that it wouldn't work. If their plan worked for that event but would not work ever again despite the format not changing, then they clearly didn't break it. They won the event and made everyone look stupid because they were unprepared, but that happens all the time. When Dragonstorm using Spinerock Knoll took Worlds did it break the format? Not even close. They prepared better and made everyone look stupid, but as soon as people were expecting Dragonstorm again it was a terrible deck. Same exact thing.

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By: Ryan Bushard https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10196 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:46:36 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10196 In reply to @Dr_Jeebus.

People tried to draft against it and to draft the same strategy all weekend…its not like they did one draft. After talking to Van Lunen about it and watching the film, they were more prepared than anyone else there and they did break it. There was no way to stop the strategy because no one knew which slivers to hate draft. They had it down to a science how to wheel certain ones and which to take first even if it looked wrong. Limited formats in general I agree cant be busted but 2HG is a whole different animal and I feel as if there was another event with the same format after that you would be correct everyone would know and try and draft it then you end up like the Tolarian academy days where you have 3 slight;ly different archtypes trying to share the glory…however for this one time only I would say they did break the format, how else do you explain the fact that everyone knew what they were doing tried to hate against it and still got crushed? Its not like the tech was a secret after saturday everyone knew what they were doing.

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By: ertaislament https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10184 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:58:36 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10184 Outstanding rant, Jeebs. Here I thought I was the only one who rolled the eyes when pros and aspirants jump on Twitter and declare they're going to "break the format." A day or two later comes the inevitable follow-up tweet "Broke it!", followed by a round of sycophantic congratulations from amongst the faithful… then comes a disappointing finish in the next pro event and the sound of crickets chirping when nobody calls them on it.

I'm hardly in a position to talk since I don't do pro events, but then I'm also not the one running the patter either.

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By: @Dr_Jeebus https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10174 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 09:58:51 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10174 In reply to Ryan Bushard.

My default, it is impossible to break a limited format, and 2HG slivers isn't even close.
First of all, much like with standard affinity, the first people to draft slivers aren't accomplishing anything; they're unwrapping a present from Wizards. I'm not at all impressed by two guys saying "Hey, all these cards pump each other. Let's draft nothing but them!" Whether they tried it or not, it is the first strategy that every single person to draft Time Spiral thought of.
Second of all, and far more importantly, draft is a self-correcting format. If one draft strategy is disproportionately powerful than all other draft strategies in a particular limited format, the format will be balanced out by more people trying to draft that strategy. If you have a 4 2HG teams drafting at a table and three of them try to draft slivers, chances are the one remaining team will win and those three teams will have borderline unplayable decks. If your strategy only works as long as NO ONE ELSE thinks to do the same thing, you haven't broken a format; you just got lucky.

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By: Ryan Bushard https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10170 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 06:23:56 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10170 I believe the actual term has just evolved with the player base and as Wizards is more careful it is far arder to actally break a format, I have to point out one more that most people miss due to the fact that it wasn't standard…or even a conventional format but as it was aPT I feel it is worth mentioning. Jacob Van Lunen and Chris Lachmann's Sliver 2HG draft strategy actually broke that format, if you watched any of thier matches you would understand what I mean…and if you watched the finals and the look on the Japanese's face (during the height of Japanese dominance) you would see that even they understood what thier opponents did…something that has never been done since and honestly may never be done again…they truly broke the format.

Thanks for the article a decent read though I feel like sometimes you rant more than you inform but its fine as someone who played through all of this I can understand the frustrations of each.

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By: Wade https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/02/stop-youre-not-going-to-break-the-format/#comment-10168 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 05:55:48 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=9726#comment-10168 I think players don't truly understand what "breaking a format" really consist of and hopefully with your explanation will begin to word things differently. I think most players have said that at one time or another (assuming they build their own deck, which a lot of people don't) but I think they really meant they would create a new tier 1 deck as opposed to "break the format". Interesting article. Hopefully it gets read a LOT.

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