Comments on: A Missed Trigger? https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:21:52 +0000 hourly 1 By: KyleKnudson https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/#comment-12635 Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:21:52 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=11470#comment-12635 In reply to @MichaelRNixon.

Interestingly enough, the latest update to the MTR puts Phase of the Game in the category of Free Information.

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By: @MichaelRNixon https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/#comment-12631 Wed, 23 Mar 2011 05:25:52 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=11470#comment-12631 If Player A is lying to a judge about the situation or cheating, then he's going to get DQ'ed. That doesn't seem to be going on here, but it's definitely something judges look into. If he's too adamant, an Unsporting Conduct penalty may be in order.

My point is that we can't apply the wrong penalty to the wrong person because it feels right or brings about the correct game state. Even if he is angling…

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By: Napo https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/#comment-12613 Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:51:28 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=11470#comment-12613 The problem here is that the player A may be taking advantage of the situation, waiting for the other player to just go on and miss the trigger, instead of just telling him: "My creature goes to the graveyard, you have to discard a card". He thought he knew the ruling, so it looks like he created a situation that would favor him.

This happens more often than you can imagine, particularly when the game is not casual. In my opinion Kyle ruling is correct: rulings should discourage players to try to get leverage from not being clear and kind with their opponents. This game is supposed to be fun.

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By: @JoshJMTG https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/#comment-12551 Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:30:24 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=11470#comment-12551 In reply to chosler.

Agreed. A player should never get a penalty for something his opponent screwed up in a way that he can't do anything about. This is something I've long had a problem with. This isn't "opponent didn't bin a guy" where it's obviously visible and the innocent player has the ability to correct without getting a judge involved.

The DCI guidelines aren't as bad in this regard as they used to be, but it's still a problem and shouldn't be.

However, in this situation, the player pushing heavily to get the other card discarded is questionable and possibly even Unsporting. He's clearly trying to get a particular ruling for strategic interest rather than simply get the game back to a proper state.

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By: chosler https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/#comment-12549 Tue, 22 Mar 2011 05:17:07 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=11470#comment-12549 I also have a problem with penalizing players who play correctly. I get really frustrated by situation like this, as this type of thing has happened to me as well. You can't stop your opponent from playing cards illegally, and you cannot play a match walking them through the beginning and end of every phase and step. I look down to adjust a life total, and my opponent can't read cards, and I get a warning? That's not how it should work, especially since these penalties actually can accumulate on players over the course of a weekend even if they do nothing wrong.

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By: @MichaelRNixon https://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/03/a-missed-trigger/#comment-12547 Tue, 22 Mar 2011 05:09:50 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=11470#comment-12547 I don't believe I can support all the aspects of your resolution as you've presented them.

TE – Player Communication Violation can only be applied to cases where MTR 4.1 has been violated. In short, this occurs when a player miscommunicates regarding Free or Derived information. As per TE – PCV "This infraction only applies to violations of the Player Communication policy, not general communication confusion." It does not apply to MTR 4.2 Shortcuts.

That being said, I believe you are quite correct that this is not a missed trigger. It is the owner's responsibility to put it on the stack, which he presumably will get to once he is done adjusting the life totals. Player B's assumption that nothing will ever intervene between combat damage and his second main phase is not a shortcut; he has moved ahead inappropriately.

It is tempting to find a penalty here (GRV to player B for casting a creature as if it had haste when it does not; that is the other category of error which allows backing up conveniently enough), but I feel like that's another case of retro-engineering a penalty to fit the resolution. I think the most appropriate thing to do is use the language of MTR 4.1 "If the players are confused by the use of a tournament shortcut, they
should be backed up to the beginning of the shortcut and no penalty should be issued (though they should be reminded to play more clearly)."

In short: let's be clear about what constitutes TE – Player Communication Violation. It does not cover general confusion.

Finally, how can we resolve this with a penalty to the player who is playing correctly?

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