I think people taking offence at haggling is a purely western phenomenon derived from what is being perceived as politeness. Saying, "I won't make an offer because I don't want to offend him," is like saying, "I won't tell him he has spinach between his teeth because I don't want to embarrass him."

Western culture is pre-programmed to avoid ever putting someone in a position where the other person may say, "No." This means we capitulate prematurely, often ending in a result that is not ideal to either party. Why do people get apprehensive about asking someone on a date? We're worried they'll say no and that will be uncomfortable. The same theory applies to haggling about price. Never ever be afraid to ask, "Is that your best price." Similarly, never be afraid to ask someone out on a date ;).

Your small example is exactly how I like to build good relationships within the MTG community. Even online, where I may never meet these people, I still see repeat names and through back and forth messaging we could become virtual "friends". So any time there's a chance of working with repeat customers, is it not rewarding to be polite and honest even at the risk of not maximizing profit every time?

True.

I do believe there is a big difference in trading or buying online (forums, auction sites, market places, …) vs doing it in public (events, …).

Online I know everyone else is able to find what is going on -> I know I am not the only one seeing the auction or reading the topics. If I am able to buy the cards for less that what I hope, I will not hesitate.

If I am trading/dealing in person, I will honestly tell that I prefer to up trade (as a shop owner), but I will always be honest.

Small example = I had a request last week from one of the players around here if I could get him a playset of Food Chains, while I was actually out of stock. I said that I was going to look around and if I was able to find the cards for the current selling price, I would do so. I was able to find them, but in the mean time the price went up. Although I could sell those cards easily for more money now, I will charge that customer the price the cards were on the day he requested them. I still make money and he is a very happy (returning) customer.

Some of those customers are becoming good friends, and that's where the line gets (very) thin though 🙂

Ok, then I may have misinterpreted something. No problem then.

It's not easy, that's for sure! I don't even have a "vendor mode", but I do have a normal trading mode and a trading amongst friends mode. Even switching between these two is difficult. Sometimes nice people give me great deals – should I not try to repay the favor on occasion? If I always take and never give, that can't be healthy for the MTG community, can it?

I didn't lie one bit, though. I DO want to keep the Vendilion Clique. All the other cards I bought, I hope to sell for profit. But not all of them – that was the point I tried to make to the seller.

The Tutor was not NM, it was EX+ or so. And I use the term "was" because I finally did find a buyer. Ended up pretty much breaking even.

I am somewhere in the middle of that (trader – vendor) and it's a tricky position.
I have an online shop, but I do trade a lot. I do offer money as well, but the most frustrating thing that can happen is that some-one is offering a bit more than me.
Most people can as they don't have to take into account costs (mostly taxes) while I have to…
I know that the other guy will probably sell or trade those cards again for (more) value though.

When I am in "vendor mode" I will ask how much they value their cards/collections. I will always counter propose a lower value. Even if the offer is way too low to begin with. Can't help it… I recently bought P9 cards for less than 30% their actual value by doing that.

When I am in "trader mode" I will always make a decent deal. I am amongst friends, players, trader colleagues and I believe it's the fair thing to do.

The most difficult thing is to switch between those modes 🙁

No interest in selling the Tutor to me? (or isn't it in the right condition?)

No interest in selling the Tutor to me? (or isn't it in the right condition?)

I think your point is an interesting one. You are proposing, in essence, that the fact that value traders aren't allowed to deal in cash at tournaments that this "shadiness" exists. Almost like it's an artifact of these rules rather than a personality trait of the traders. When this happens, it seems unfair in a way that the exchange of cardboard should result in monetary gains as opposed to the obvious exchange of cash for cards.

If only there was a convenient way for all those backpack guys to convene near a large tournament location (but off site) to deal in cash without breaking rules.

If instead cash transactions were allowed to happen, it should allow for some healthy competition between business and backpack traders. In theory, a B&M with large amounts of cards and overhead should always be able to out offer what a backpack vendor can give in cash value on any given card. This is merely an assumption but it seems plausible that the awkwardness of the Magic secondary market is caused by stores with large market power exerting monopolistic control over the market.

This is just a hypothesis of mine. I hope it makes some sense.

There is a worse case than the one you cited – if dealing with someone who is perhaps in a bad mood, or emotional, or what have you. Then you may get snapped at if you're too aggressive. You've never had that happen before? Maybe it's something that happens more frequently on MOTL because there is no face-to-face interaction and people tend to be more abrasive online.

Glad to have your support though, I agree the cards are mine to do with what I please 🙂

To clarify one thing on the Clique – I meant to say that the Vendilion Clique WAS in fact a 4th card for my set. In fact, it was the only card in the lot that I DID want to keep. The rest I hope to sell. So I told the seller I wasn't planning on buying his cards just to make profit – I in fact wanted at least one of the cards for myself. At the time this seemed reassuring to the seller, though after the transaction was complete he was a good sport about it.

As for the Grim Tutor situation, I did get snapped at for making an aggressive offer on an already-fairly priced card. This upset me, and I'm glad to hear from people that I was not in the wrong for attempting to negotiate further.

I never lie about values and the like. I often encourage people to look up cards when they don't know their value. I'm not out to find the ignorant trader who values their personal tutor at $15…to me that's "grey". I'd rather trade based on accurate values and grind out value more transparently, or by picking up cards on the up swing.

Theft is obvious. I don't think anyone could make an argument for stealing cards.

Lying is the only 'grey' area. When you see a Personal Tutor in someone's trade binder and let them know you are interested, and they ask "what's it selling for?", here is, IMO, the only place morality enters into trading. Do you tell the full truth and say "it's actually jumped up to ~$40"? Do you try to skirt the issue and ask "what do you value it at?" Do you deceive and say something like "when i checked last weekend it was at $15"?

Good point. Having a trade partner complain about a trade (especially while in the process of the trade) is akin to a customer complaining to a dealer or store about how they're trying to making money by selling them cards.

I think that transparency is important. As in, don't lie about card value or why you want the cards. But don't feel ashamed. If people are selling a good at $X and you offer then $X-y and they accept, great. That's called selling something.

If they get upset about the offer, then it seems they aren't cut out for dealing with people. 🙂

This isn't 1993 anymore. Everyone knows exactly what every card sells for. There is no hidden information.

Same with Grim Tutor. If I walked into a B&M store and saw a Grim Tutor for $20 in their binder, I'd have no problem offing them $15. Why the hell wouldn't you at least try to get an even better deal? When I walk into a Walmart, I know I have to pay the listed price because no one can negotiate. But if I'm in a mom & pop store, and either mom or pop is running the till, obviously I'm going to ask for a lower price. Who wouldn't? All their gonna say is "sorry, I can't go lower".
At the trade tables I constantly hear the following exchanges:
A: "What do you value this card at?"
B: "$20"
A: "could you do $18?"

To me, that's just common sense – always ask for a better price. The worst that should happen is:
B: "Nah, I won't trade it at less than $20"

But the thing I simply can't wrap my head around is why someone would care what you're going to do with the card after you get it. After the trade/sale, the card belongs to me to do with as I please. Are there really people out there who will only trade you cards if they think you are going to play with them? If so, can someone give me an insight into their mind?

Regarding the Grim Tutor, I think your actions make sense, assuming his price was fair. I would think you're free to try to get more for it than what he asked. If you feel more comfortable selling through oither channels, I am looking for a NM one if the price is right…

Regarding the Grim Tutor, I think your actions make sense, assuming his price was fair. I would think you're free to try to get more for it than what he asked. If you feel more comfortable selling through oither channels, I am looking for a NM one if the price is right…