Comments on: Twister, Go: Day’s Undoing in Modern https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:33:24 +0000 hourly 1 By: Blake Burgess https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121168 Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:33:24 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121168 In my most epic of necroposts to the above:

State-based effects are checked at end of turn, so ‘Goyf is toast.

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By: Malvin https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121167 Thu, 20 Aug 2015 06:57:56 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121167 A resolved Undoing empties both graveyards, setting Tarmogoyf to 0/1 and killing him if he has even a single damage marked before any player receives priority.

Tarmogoyf really dies after resolving undoing? There is in-built tme stop on this card, which wears damage off creatures, state based actions aren’t checked before shuffling and ending the turn, so… Goyf is alive. Am I right or no? 🙂

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By: VERTIKAL https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121166 Sun, 28 Jun 2015 22:22:31 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121166 In reply to Harvey.

The thing is you can abuse tempo cards extremely well with this card. If you can Vapor Snag and then cycle hands thats essentially hard removal. Cards like the Shoals also get better if you essentially use free cards. I would expect Delver to be pretty strong with such a powerful card draw so that you can just leverage tempo spells. Also Tasigur and Gurmag Angler match very poorly against cards like Vapor Snag. Also if you cycle into a Disrupting Shoal and counter their next play you get the tempo swing again. After all the deck would just be about maintaining tempo and killing your opponent because they can really build up

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121165 Sun, 28 Jun 2015 17:24:56 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121165 In reply to bertu.

I initially had an Island over the 4th Inkmoth and considered running a Shivan Reef over it. I did cut it since I don’t see lots of Path to Exile these days but another Inkmoth seemed better to me. It’s possible that I’m lacking in colored sources, but that also might be indicative of my playstyle; I mulligan very aggressively, and Day’s Undone actually counteracts any disadvantage you do get from a mulligan.

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By: Jorge https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121164 Sun, 28 Jun 2015 16:36:03 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121164 Thankfully the card costs 3. That means it can be more easily interacted with than Treasure Cruise, although I do think the turn 2 Undoing from an affinity shell is brutal.

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By: justaguy https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121163 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 20:35:30 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121163 In reply to Nickolay Krumov.

There’s a big difference between Thought Scour (read Dark Ritual with ‘draw a card’ at it’s best and ‘replace me’ at its worst) and Leyline of Anticipation (draw me outside of your opening hand and be sad).

I can see decks trying to run Quicken though – mostly because it replaces itself for 1 mana at it’s absolute worst. It also works well with Snapcaster Mage.

It doesn’t play well with the Delve decks – you don’t really want to be running 4 Thought Scour and 4 Quicken, at some point you need more than fluff in your deck.

I’m not too concerned about the Quicken combo – it’s a complete build around, not very good against counter-magic, and not good for blue decks not named Delver. Even then, I don’t see a Delver list being excited about tapping out for this.

Creature decks are using Collected Company for velocity, so the only place I see it is in Burn replacing Treasure Cruise in the pre-ban era Burn lists.

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By: Nickolay Krumov https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121162 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 17:12:35 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121162 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Nobody’s talking about Quicken, I think it’s a ridiculous notion. However, your point about people not going out of their way to play the delve cards is mute. We are seeing Thought Scour be the number one cantrip – all of this started with Cruise, as people figured out the most efficient way to deliberately fuel graveyards. You don’t Thought Scour yourself just to get the extra card, you do it because it puts three cards in the yard and cycles itself, enabling things like Turn 2 Tasigur/Angler.

Again, all of that started with Cruise. For a reason. We will see the same thing happen with Day’s Undoing, except this time it will be decks running Leyline (of Anticipation, in case it’s not crystal clear). MAYBE. I don’t know what the best way to break the card is, but that’s one of them. It might be the Affinity deck, but that’s honestly disgusting.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121161 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 15:04:10 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121161 In reply to justaguy.

I’m with you. Let’s hope I’m totally off on this one.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121160 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 15:03:44 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121160 In reply to Nickolay Krumov.

I didn’t mention Quicken in the article because I don’t think it’s very good. You cantrip, but what do you do with that extra card? Unless Quicken draws you an Instant, the card is wasted. Quicken is also pretty dead without an Undoing; I don’t think you want to be cantripping with no upside for U in this format. The decks that supposedly want Quicken are reactive decks, right? No Aggro deck wants to pass the turn and do stuff on your End Step. If Twin finds a way to slow down the game substantially, it could run this combo, but it still seems much worse to me than some other options.

You mentioned Treasure Cruise and said that people will “go out of their way” to use this “power” effect in Modern. I’m sure you remember that Cruise didn’t require players to go out of their way at all – it rewarded you just for playing out your hand quickly and functionally was Ancestral Recall in the decks that played it. I think Undoing does the same thing – it slots effortlessly into fast Aggro decks that don’t need to splash jank like Quicken to fully benefit from the effect.

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By: justaguy https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121159 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:33:56 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121159 If this is remotely true, its about the most depressing thing I could’ve read about the Modern format.

Luckily, the Chicken Little’s rarely have it right…

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By: Nickolay Krumov https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121158 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 07:26:31 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121158 In reply to Harvey.

That’s why you’ll be casting it at instant speed on the end of their turn, to get to untap first with the new 7. Still, even on your turn, it’s a powerful way to clear the stack, enabling you to counter spells that say they can’t be countered or just a whole bunch of spells at once.

This card has an effect of Power with some drawback, much like Cruise did, so expect to see people going out of their way to make the drawback go away. Personally I’m going to use Leyline for now, but I’m sure it’s going to become unnecessary once people figure out the correct shell.

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By: Harvey https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121157 Sat, 27 Jun 2015 02:53:57 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121157 The end turn clause is too much to overcome. Shipping your opponents 7 cards and then passing is asking for trouble most of the time.

There’s no denying certain game states in which you get perfect scenarios with the card, but how many unfavorable spots are we getting into in order to attain those? There are too many combo decks and other linear archetypes out there who would love for an opponent to play this card vs them.

The card may be broken, but it would more likely happen in some zany quicken combo build than it would being added to an aggro deck.

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By: bertu https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121156 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 21:21:36 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121156 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

You still should consider running more colored sources. If the plan is to dump hand into Undoing, you really want a colored source always available on turn 2 so you can start bolting before casting Undoing. I can also see this deck making good use of two colored sources early on (thoughtcast into same turn bolt).

12 sources just isn’t enough for that many colored spells.

If the deck is as good you claim, then your tuning priority should be to make it more consistent. I’d suggest cutting two between thoughtcasts and inkmoths for a couple Shivan Reefs.

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By: OpUno https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121155 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 20:55:28 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121155 Another repeat of the Cruise season is not going to help selling Modern.

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By: Dylan Edgar https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121154 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:49:52 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121154 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

I feel like if you want to play a deck where burn is your end game, then play burn. Affinity rewards itself by flooding the board with a position that is nigh impossible to come back from.

You say that Steel Overseer doesnt win the game the turn you play it. I say you are right, but with Days Undoing in my list, resolving a Master or Overseer sets you up to a position that allows you to flood the board where spot removal (which is the premier removal right now) is awful, and Kolaghan`s Command isnt enough. Frogmites allow the hand to be emptied to chain Days Undoing faster, and Overseer and Master allow you to capitlize on this position.

I understand you only need 1 colored source, but the problem is having 1 source and not able to capitalize on refilling your hand. My list chains Day into Day easier than yours will.

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By: Rory Alexander Farrell-Madden McDonough https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121153 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:20:33 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121153 I was doing some limited testing with Day’s Undoing in Burn. Following the trend with Treasure Cruise, I only ran it as a 3-of, and didn’t make any dramatic changes to the burn list otherwise. Goldfishing, the card was great. When I drew it, I could usually play it on turn 3-4 and sometimes even follow up with a lightning bolt or shard volley at the beginning of my opponent’s turn, thus making up for any lost damage. And then the next turn, I’d unload my hand for an obscene 9+ damage. Awesome.

The problem is, when I think about how this card does in actual match-ups, I get nervous.

Looking at the T1 decks:
-Jund: It feels like this card is made for this match up. If I can get this out turn 3 or 4, I should catch Jund with 3-4 cards still in hand and get some real value. However, if my game slows down and I topdeck this game 6, I might be nervous. Jund could very well draw the cards it needs to kill me next turn.
-Affinity: Terrible. They’ll just kill me on their turn.
-Burn: Horrible, as you mentioned. They’ll hit me for 9+ damage on their turn.
-Grixis Twin: I’m nervous about handing a combo deck 7 more combo cards, especially since they can flash in their exarch or pestermite right before this goes off and then play twin on their turn.
-RG Tron: Feels pretty good. Not too much they can do unless they can get up to 15 mana and put down Emrakul.
-UR Twin: Pretty nervous, same as with Grixis Twin.
-Amulet Bloom: Pretty sure they’ll find a way to cast their Primal Titan or Hive Mind.

Similarly, looking at the T2 decks, Im nervous about the linear and combo decks: Abzan Company, Merfolk, Infect, Elves, Naya Zoo, Scapeshift, and Ad Nauseum all have a really good chance of killing me next turn. I’m feeling okay about Abzan and Grixis Control. On the fence about Delver.

So at the end of the day, this card only seems particularly good versus BGx, Tron, and Control, and even then if I don’t draw it by turn 3 or 4, they might still be able to use those cards to squeak out a win. Sure, in some situations I just won’t play it, but then I’ve turned what could have been a live topdeck into a dead card. Assuming I’m not overreacting (and I have NOT done extensive testing outside of goldfishing), it feels like a sideboard card, and one that demands splashing a color you don’t really want to play otherwise.

Affinity does seem like it might be the most well placed to take advantage of this card, as I could see turn 2-3 plays as being a lot more common, which MIGHT just give it enough of an edge to deny a similar advantage to other linear decks.

In any case, I do plan to continue testing with this, and look forward to seeing how it works for you and the field as a whole.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121152 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 18:21:39 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121152 In reply to Dylan Edgar.

I’ve been playing Affinity since Standard and have to disagree with you. We only want to draw one color source since we can count on Day’s Undoing to find us more. Similarly, we don’t want too many creatures – Undoing just fills our hand back up and finds us more. Burn is our primary win condition anyway. The Bolts are important because they provide that instant reach and we don’t care about wasting cards – in fact, we want to spend them as quickly as possible. Waste is good. Day’s Undoing rewards us for playing bad Magic. Cards like Master are way too slow for an Undoing meta. If you doubt the list I’ll invite you to proxy up the Undoings and give it a shot; I’ve been very impressed by how fast and resilient it is.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121151 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 17:52:49 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121151 There are some bold statements in this article. I recognize the potential of Day’s Undoing (who wouldn’t?), and there are definitely some linear decks out there that can mitigate some of the weaknesses (I especially liked your take on Burn with it), but I think it’s going to have to prove to me that it truly is a “must have” piece in burn-through-your-hand-style aggro. As for the decks themselves… I don’t know if I’d want 4 in either of them (it makes drawing multiples a real issue to deal with, which you had to address with Faithless Looting in Burn – not feeling that). 2-3 seems appropriate.

I’m also surprised you didn’t try this out in Merfolk – that deck has Vial (which you mentioned), pumps out cards from its hand (like you mentioned), can attack and then throw this bad boy down, and it doesn’t even have to splash for it. It might not work, but it’s worth a shot (definitely something to consider when paired with the Disrupting Shoals that have done so well for your spin on Delver).

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By: Dylan Edgar https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/06/twister-go-undoing-modern/#comment-2121150 Fri, 26 Jun 2015 16:32:13 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=2837#comment-2121150 I’m sorry, but that affinity list is terrible.

First off, you have 12 colored sources and 16!!! colored spells. This is not going to work out at all, especially when we go to part 2:

you only have 16 creatures. No vault skirges main is just wrong, and running 4 Thoughtcasts and 4 Lightning Bolts along with 4 Blasts is just….too much. Which poses the question if you’ve ever played an affinity deck.

I want to start with 4 Days Undoing not because its necessarily good, but because if I’m going to test it might as well go big. So lets start with an Affinity core with 4 Days Undoing in it:

3 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Arcbound Ravager

4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
1 Welding Jar (can be 4th Memnite)
4 Days Undoing

4 Glimmervoid (typically only run 3, but we want 17 lands with this list)
1 Island
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

that takes us to 4 Colored spells (typical affinity lists run 6-8) and a total of 53 cards, which allows us 7 slots.

2 Master of Etherium and 2 Steel Overseer gives us more power. That takes us to 57. I think I also want some number of Frogmite, especially if we’re cruising through our deck that fast. Realistically, 4 Days Undoing is PROBABLY too much, so lets try 3 and run 4 Frogmites.

That gives us a list of:
3 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Steel Overseer
2 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite

4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
1 Welding Jar (can be 4th Memnite)
3 Days Undoing

4 Glimmervoid (typically only run 3, but we want 17 lands with this list)
1 Island
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

Which If my math is correct gives us 6 colored spells, 60 cards and WAY more consistency than your list.

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