Comments on: Best of Both Worlds: Your Weekly Undoing Digest https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:33:05 +0000 hourly 1 By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121613 Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:33:05 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121613 In reply to Anonymous.

You can think that but that’s not what his comment says, at all. He believes there is no streamlined version of the deck because theres only 5-6 people that constitute the countercat player base. That’s the only way to interpret that statement.

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121612 Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:19:36 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121612 In reply to Anonymous.

Just for the record, he’s not saying he’s one of the few people in the world to play wild nacatl and delver in the same deck, he’s saying there’s an active community of 5-6 consistent, involved players on the above linked forum that have played and contributed to his version and idea of the deck.

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121611 Mon, 31 Aug 2015 07:03:39 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121611 In reply to Kathal.

LOL, there’s more than 5-6 people playing nacatl/delver variants. Crazy how elitist magic players can get when they think they “invented things”.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121610 Mon, 17 Aug 2015 16:28:07 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121610 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Nice insights on Bauble. I like the idea of having an answer ready for opponents to respond to the draw trigger. There’s been some public outcry about my onslaught of Undoing articles, so I’m holding off on writing about that card, at least for a couple of weeks. But it seems like you’ve experienced firsthand the power of these decks, and rest assured, I’ll come back to writing about Undoing Delver variants soon enough. I definitely won’t stop playing them, though!

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By: Jon Sanchez https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121609 Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:13:39 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121609 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Thanks Jordan!

Yeah, I did bring double Revelry against tokens, but only 1 vs. Hatebears, which I think in one iteration of my report I called out as a miss given that, worst-case, it kills Golem tokens…but I must have deleted that out while self-editing.

Bauble was my unsung MVP, hands-down. That card is bonkers. It synergizes SO WELL in the deck. In fact, in the quarters, I had like half a dozen spectators singing the praises of that card after watching me use it to flip Delvers, pump Goyfs/Swiftspears, cast early Mandrills, and get some scry-action with fetches. Late game it can be a rough draw, but generally only if you’re looking for a threat. Otherwise cracking it on your turn to get the card on their upkeep is usually 85% as good as getting on your turn since I generally found that I was looking for some kind of disruption anyway–either Snag/Bolt or Shoal/Denial. So as long as my Bauble didn’t draw me into exactly Probe/Visions it was fine to get the card on their turn. I also found that the timing of the “draw a card” was useful for complicating/obscuring my opponents’ lines. In general, if you’re in a game state where your opponent is taking actions before your draw step (to play around counter-magic), putting extra “draw steps” into the game, especially on their upkeep, felt pretty good. It was definitely the last of my considerations on when/how to use Bauble, but I found people were responding to that trigger, so I started considering if there were situations where I could take advantage of that fact (mostly in my Twin matches).

Anyway, it’s funny that you ask about sticking with the list because I was looking at your Counter-Cat list on MTGSalvation, but I honestly can’t bring myself to part with Bauble! So yes, I am probably going to stick with this list for while, and plan on sticking with one of the 4 variants all the way through Indy, unless Rhinos decide to CRASH the party (sorry for the pun)…

P.S. I’m not sorry for the pun.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121608 Mon, 17 Aug 2015 14:35:35 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121608 In reply to Jon Sanchez.

Sweet report. Seems like you played really well. I would have brought in double Revelry against Tokens and Hatebears, since hitting Vial is so important. You’re correct to keep Day’s vs. the Grixis decks, they just do not beat that card. Not to mention you can Shoal an exarch with it, but it doesn’t seem like that came up? Would like to hear your thoughts on how Bauble played out specifically. The card has been very good for me turn 1, combining with Serum Visions, Probe, or a fetchland to all but ensure a second land on turn 2. Do you plan on sticking with the deck for awhile? Good luck in Indiana!

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121607 Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:43:52 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121607 In reply to Jon Sanchez.

This deck looks like a beast. I’m definitely going to try something like this out and see how I do.

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By: Jon Sanchez https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121606 Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:50:27 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121606 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

PPTQ @ Kevin’s Gamers’ Bazaar in Farmington, MO w/ Banana Phone RUG Delver

Quick background on me:
I’ve been collecting MTG cards since Ice Age, and playing at LGSs off and on since Odyssey. In 2012 I picked the game up again and was all-in after going undefeated all the way to the finals of a Standard GPT that I attended more or less on a whim (playing U/W humans). In 2013 I converted to Modern, and haven’t looked back. I haven’t really done anything on any big stages, but I t8’d the last SCG PIQ in St. Louis, won TCGplayer Modern States (Missouri), won a GPT for GP Omaha (where I went 5-2 drop) and have t8-16’d a handful of other comp REL events–PTQs, GPTs, States, and the like. All modern, all the time. And of course now I’m on my way the RPTQ in Indy.

Deck choice:
My typical go-to for competitive events is Scapeshift, but for this event I decided I wanted to do something (else) no one really expected (aside: I’ve found that you can pick up significant advantages in Modern by playing off-the-radar decks).

I tested iGrow and Monkey Grow, and I wanted a hybrid of the two as I expected a lot of Twin and Jund. Plus I love Hooting Mandrills + Stubborn Denial and wanted to take Day’s Undoing for a spin, so I decided to battle with Mr. Boisvert’s Banana Phone variant of RUG Delver.

Here is my exact list…basically I just swapped +1 Feed the Clans for -1 Huntmaster to improve the Burn matchup a bit as I expected to see multiple copies in the room (and there were):

Creatures (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills

Sorceries (11)
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Day’s Undoing

Instants (13)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Vapor Snag

Other (4)
4 Mishra’s Bauble

Lands (17)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
2 Vapor Snag
2 Feed the Clan
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Day’s Undoing

Round 1—G/W Hatebears (2-1):
Game 1 felt like a lesson in Tempo for my opponent. On the play I quickly beat down with something like double Delver, bolt Leonin Arbiter, Hooting Mandrills, Stubborn Denial a Path, and then hold up Shoal to counter a Scanvenging Ooze the hard way, to which my opponent scooped

Game 2 went the other way. My opponent had double Path for a Delver and a Mandrills, meanwhile curving Thalia into Arbiter into double Blade Splicer and double Restoration Angel. My remaining Goyfs were stalled on the ground by a lethal swing-back if I attacked while a very angry Angel quickly dispatched me in the air

I hadn’t seen my opponent’s Angel value plan game 1, so I mistakenly bolted down an Arbiter in response to a Ghost Quarter on land #4 (which obviously didn’t actually matter). I should’ve held it for a Splicer in response to Angel.

Game 3 was much closer than either of the previous games. I don’t entirely recall the early-game, but I know the game was shut down with an upkeep Bolt after my opponent had stabilized at 3 and I was left with only a Day’s Undoing…good enough!

For sideboarding I just brought in the extra Snags and a miser’s Revelry to answer Choke, Worship, or Aether Vial.

Rounds 2 & 3—Grixis Twin (2-0):
As you will see, I played against Grixis Twin 4 times against the same 2 players in both the Swiss and elimination rounds. That being said, most of these games kind of blur together, particularly in the Swiss rounds. So suffice it to say that while this matchup looks potentially close on paper (thanks to Tasigur/Angler), it’s actually not.

The hero of this match is Tarmogoyf…specifically 5/6 Goyf, enabled by Mishra’s Bauble. This makes all the difference compared to the garden-variety 4/5 Goyfs you might get from iGrow or Monkey Grow. Ultimately this match plays out in textbook Tempo fashion. If your threats + counters are greater than the number of Terminates/Snap-Terminates they put together, you win. I did find Exarch as a mild nuisance, often completely nerfing my t3/t4 attack by tapping Goyf/Mandrills, which actually made Snag actively poor, since the ETB effect was actually better than the 1/4 body.

Anyway, my two opponents played very differently post-board; one favoring the control route, cutting combo pieces, and the other staying all-in on the combo, so I actually sided differently against each. All the Snags and Denials came in in both matches, but I brought in Huntmaster against the “control” opponent, while I left them on the bench against the “combo” opponent and opted for a Revelry instead given their respective post-board plans. I also felt very unsure of whether or not I wanted Day’s in these matches. I ended up deciding I did for two reasons: against the “control” player they obviously provide extra card advantage; against the “combo” player I trimmed 1, but the other two still made Shoal live for Exarchs/Pestermites, which was actually a fairly big deal.

Oh, and I got Mishra’s Bauble countered by Cryptic Command. To be fair, he was just going to tap my team at begin combat, but he chose to counter Bauble over drawing a card. That’s some respect. Or desperation. Either way, I’ll take it.

Round 4—BW Tokens (2-1):
Not sure how this guy made it through Twin, Tron, and Living End. Maybe those aren’t actually bad matchups for Tokens, I have no clue, but either way I knew I did NOT want to play against Lingering Souls backed up with Thoughtsieze and Path, and I was hoping others would knock this guy out for me!

Game 1 I think I scooped on turn 4 when my Probe revealed 2x Path and 2x Raise the Alarm as I was presently getting the beatdown from 5 2/2 vigilant spirits.

For the post-board games I’m still feeling good with Pyroclasms, Revelries, and Huntmasters. Then I draw up a no-lander, followed by 5 land + something useless, and I keep on 5 with a 2 land, Goyf, Stubborn Denial, Shoal. I Denial a t1 Thoughtsieze and chain 3 Goyfs onto the field. One gets Path’ed, I counter another Path and a Secure the Wastes for 4, and beat face with the 2 remaining Goyfs until he runs out of blockers.

Game 3 my opponent keeps a 1-lander with an Inquisition and fails to find his second land, but did find infinite Paths and Thoughtsiezes, so unfortunately I couldn’t pressure him despite having Delver and 2x Goyf in the first few turns of the game. Eventually I landed a Hooting Mandrills just as he started peeling lands and making tokens, but the trample proved to be too effective. I put him to 5 before he found a Dismember and put himself to 3 to kill the poor monkey. I ripped a Swiftspear that hit him to 2 and kept him off Intangible Virtue and Honor of the Pure because of the Destructive Revelry he saw when he plucked my Goyf with a Thoughtseize. When he pulled Path number 3 for the Swiftspear I cast Day’s for the upkeep Bolt kill.

Round 5—Draw

I ended up taking 1st in the Swiss and was loving that good ‘ol modified play/draw rule as I made my way into the elimination rounds.

Quarterfinals—Grixis Twin (2-0):
This match was against the “control” strategy Twin player, and went the same way as the Swiss rounds. In game 1 my sole threat (Goyf) got stalled out by a Spell Snare that was revealed to my Probe. Eventually I weaved around it by setting up a Snag on a Tasigur to bait out a Dispel that I Denial’ed in Force Spike mode to tap him out. I then safely resolved my 5/6 Goyf the next turn. I think it eventually caught a Terminate, but by that point the opponent was on the defensive and was not able to stop other threats from landing enough hits to put him in Bolt-range.

Game 2 was much grindier. Delvers died to Bolts, Goyfs and Mandrills hit the bin thanks to Terminate, Terminate, Snap-Terminate shenanigans, but not without sneaking in a few hits here and there. Towards the late game my opponent Thoughtsiezed and was presented with Huntmaster, Day’s. He took Huntmaster. I was set to teach him to respect the Day’s when I ripped another Huntmaster off the top and went with that instead to put myself ahead on board in addition to being ahead in life, since we were both low on cards in hand. But I hit a Swiftspear and attacked in with the team for lethal.

Semifinals—Infect (2-0):
This match was extremely quick. Game 1 I Shoaled a t1 Glistener Elf and left my opponent with a handful of pump spells with no creature. Eventually he fetched up Dryad Arbor as a desperation blocker, but my Goyfs and Mandrills shredded him too quickly when backed up with Bolt, Snag, and Denial.

For this match I basically just wanted extra Snags, Denials, and a Revelry for Inkmoth, Wild Defiance, and Spellskite.

Game 2 basically played out the same way. He had 2 Blighted Agent and 2 Mutagenic Growth (1 of which I had covered by a Shoal), so my Bolts were live and Snag proved to provide adequate support to the rag-tag team of Swiftspear and Mandrills swinging in while Agent #2 was relegated to blocking duty.

Finals—Grixis Twin (2-1):
Here we were…the finals! I was paired against the “combo” Grixis Twin player from rd 3 and felt good coming off of my wins in Swiss and then in the quarters.

Game 1 was a walk in the park despite a mull to 6. My opponent kept 4 land, 2 Exarch, Terminate. I was on the play and led on Probe, into t1 Delver flipped off of a Bauble. I cast Serum Visions and held up Stubborn Denial for the impending Terminate, which was cast and countered. From there a Mandrills joined my Delver and made a Denial live that protected me from the combo while Delver finished things off as Exarchs tapped and blocked my Mandrills.

Game 2 things fell apart a bit. I mulled to 6 and kept a land-heavy hand with a Goyf, a Visions and a Bolt (had to be better than a mull to 5), but I didn’t have a Probe and I didn’t want to wait around for one or a counter, so I deployed Goyf right into a Terminate. The game drug-out into a Bolt-fest and we eventually found ourselves both at 3 life. My opponent was tapped out with the lethal Snap-Bolt in hand. I had to find a Bolt. I fetch down to 2 to thin out my deck and take a peak at the top card…Hooting Mandrills.

Game 3 I had gas. 2x Bauble, Visions, and fetch set up a t2 Mandrills on the play. My opponent led on Island, so I knew my Mandrills was in the clear from Terminate and I jammed. My opponent kept a handful of Islands and conditional counters—Spell Snare, Dispel, Spell Pierce, etc. None of which were of any help against the merciless beating my gang of 3 monkeys were laying down. Exarchs did their best to slow things down, but ultimately my opponent’s only hope was to pull of a combo-kill, and he wasn’t able to keep an Exarch in play long enough to do so as they just kept getting tossed in front of the monkey onslaught to keep my opponent alive one turn at a time. Eventually my opponent goes for a Cryptic Command to stay alive and get a chance at ripping the Twin, but I had the Stubborn Denial for the game, match, and tournament!

Post-Tournament Thoughts:
Overall I felt like this deck was just silly. There were so many games—particularly g1 on the play—that just felt like I was playing a Legacy deck in Modern. No one was prepared for Hooting Mandrills, Mishra’s Bauble, Stubborn Denial, or Disrupting Shoal…I was literally opening people’s eyes to cards they had never deemed “good enough.” I can’t tell you how many times I heard “Wow…I guess *that card* is good,” generally in reference to either Bauble or Shoal.

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By: Jon Sanchez https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121605 Sun, 16 Aug 2015 23:24:29 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121605 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Would love to!

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121604 Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:44:33 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121604 In reply to Jon Sanchez.

Awesome to hear! Mind writing us a little report?

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By: Jon Sanchez https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121603 Sun, 16 Aug 2015 20:37:59 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121603 Just won a PPTQ in MO with the Banana Phone! Played Grixis Twin 4 times between swiss and elimination…that matchup feels really good!

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121602 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:02:34 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121602 In reply to Lucas Swift.

Play iGrow with Abbot of Keral Keep and cut the green.

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By: Erik Kennedy https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121601 Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:17:59 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121601 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

You could always record videos and over dub them later if you wanna shoe horn in more description. I for one would love to see a video of any of these decks, because youve given us so much information and im eager to see it applied.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121600 Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:04:44 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121600 In reply to Boogelawoof.

Thanks for stopping by! Keep us posted on your progress with the deck 🙂

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By: Beryl Lasko https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121599 Mon, 10 Aug 2015 11:45:03 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121599 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

This! Keep us posted, I will be watching!

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By: Boogelawoof https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121598 Mon, 10 Aug 2015 06:48:55 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121598 Hey there, been reading this website for a while. Love modern and brewing. Short history on the deck: I started playing on MODO (was on cockatrice for years) after Chapin’s delve list cause I’m an Esper fanatic. After messing around with it, I wanted to experiment with a mashup of that and delver. I didn’t want to go green initially because I fiured I would just play monkey grow or iGrow if I did. After a while, I came to he same conclusion that you did about trample. The looting was there to clear out delve heavy hands, cause having three anglers was rough, but definitely not necessary if your going Green.

Some important observations:

Jamming the black delve creatures is fantastic but much more midrange than tempo, as discussed. Turn one Tasigur happened once off 2 baubles, 2 probes and a fetch. That felt bonkers. I imagine mandrills on one would be just as satisfying.

Swift spear on turn one followed by baubles or probes is sweet and into t2 delve creature backed by denial is also bonkers. Doing 3-4 damage before they even play is just crazy and remarkably consistent.

Bauble is great with every creature and is really the secret of the deck. Getting another chance at a delver flip is no joke. It’s also wonderful with undoing like you described.

Stubborn denial is plain unfair and is honestly worth running the full 8 black delve creatures, but should probably just be Chapin’s list if you want the full playset. I agree with running only 3 if you go green but I think having 4 mandrills might be too important. It’s just too easy to cast them with probes and baubles, but like you said, what to cut. I’ll try it out with three and see how it feels.

I didn’t have enough creature interaction so the vapor snags were missed. I love this temur list and will definitely be playing it. For anyone playing grixis delver, the falkenrath aristocrat is just crazy against midrange and spot removal heavy decks. Being able to eat delvers, swift spears and tasigurs to get in for the last points of damage in the air hasted won me a few games. Leylines are also ridiculous and highly recommend them in any deck.

With disrupting shoal, bauble and fetchland interaction, one mana plays all day and only running 17 lands, this deck really feels like playing legacy. Now that I have a delver list to play, I’ve been tweaking the grixis list, dropping delvers and seeing if I can take a more midrange approach, but not sure it will be successful. I just love brewing and playing against competitive decks. You really learn a lot about the game when you do. Thanks for talking about my deck. It really made my day.

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By: Lucas Swift https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121597 Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:14:30 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121597 How do you feel the deck would fair without the goyfs, and what would you replace to compensate as goyfs are far out of my price range?

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By: Francis Jodoin https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121596 Sun, 09 Aug 2015 07:20:15 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121596 A card not showing immediate result doesn’t mean its bad. I mean how long has borborygmos and nourishing shoal been here and people just figured out not long ago that stupid grishoalbrand deck. I’m sure undoing has potential, it is just not an obvious one and we need to let the modern hive mind have some time before the code is cracked.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121595 Sat, 08 Aug 2015 16:51:24 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121595 In reply to Jesse white.

I’m always hesitant to do videos since I can’t be as eloquent on film as I can in text 😛 But you’re far from the first person to ask for these so I will probably look into doing them soon!

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By: Jesse white https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/best-of-both-worlds-your-weekly-undoing-digest/#comment-2121594 Sat, 08 Aug 2015 15:25:59 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=3663#comment-2121594 Hey man, don’t let the criticism get you down. Your undoing articles have been my favorite on this site, but what I’d really like to see are some videos! I’ve been interested in DU from the start, but I think that seeing it in action would really help me and other readers get a feel for how it actually plays out. Keep up the great work!

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