Comments on: Fair Thee Well: Modern Archetypes, Part 3 https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:47:21 +0000 hourly 1 By: Neil Graham https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121998 Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:47:21 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121998 Hi Jordan,

I think it’s great that you’re being open to feedback and constantly evolving your definition with learning being the ultimate goal. I really appreciated the article. Thanks for your hard work here. 🙂

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By: Ezra https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121997 Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:53:09 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121997 I’m curious as to what you would add to Flores’ archetype breakdown? Something for midrange is the only thing that design philosophy has really changed since it was written, otherwise the article mostly stands up to the test of time.

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121996 Sun, 30 Aug 2015 03:41:47 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121996 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

In your last article you still label ramp as unfair: “But these proactive, linear, and often unfair decks don’t fit smoothly into any of the hybrid categories discussed last week, so I move to bench the issue for now.”

You straw manned my statement. I merely compared Aether Vial to mana ramp strategies that you label as unfair, I never stated Aether Vial belonged in them.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121995 Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:31:12 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121995 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

I’ll invite you to read the other articles, as my ramp definition has been redefined as the series progressed. There’s also a big different between running a set of Noble Hierarchs in an Aggro deck and dedicating a large chunk of your cards to mana acceleration. I’d be interested in seeing a list containing Aether Vial that you’d consider “Ramp.”

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By: ragtag https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121994 Sun, 30 Aug 2015 00:15:08 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121994 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

I have read your articles, here is a direct quote from you regarding ramp strategies:

“Ramp strategies occupy a strange place among Midrange decks, as it trades interaction for mana acceleration and expensive bombs. It ends up losing to Tempo, but beating other Midrange decks, as well as many Control strategies. Unlike other Midrange decks, Ramp strategies are unfair.”

I think the last sentence is rather pertinent, as what is ramp other than mana acceleration?

Just because a card is used in a fair deck does not mean that the card itself is in fact fair. Fair decks can contain unfair elements.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121993 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 23:30:03 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121993 In reply to Anonymous.

“Severely lacking” is still “lacking!” Pick any word you like, but at least to me, 0.1% and 0% are different. I’d say 8Rack, with its 0.1% share, is still more of a Modern deck than Blue-Red Minotaur Tribal (0%).

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121992 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 23:27:29 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121992 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

I clearly defined fair and unfair in the article and mana acceleration just doesn’t fall into the unfair category according to that definition. It’s fine if you have a different definition than me, but it’s natural that the article makes less sense if you choose to read it with your definition in mind and not mine. Check out parts 1 and 2 (linked above), and you can see the evolution of my definition over the last few weeks.

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121991 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:36:31 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121991 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Indeed there are some prison decks with 8-Rack being another one of them but their meta-shares are so tiny that they might as well not exist. 8-Rack for example has a whopping 0.1%.
I think lacking is a bit of an understatement.

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By: ragtag https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121990 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:51:25 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121990 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Also to add on, Aether Vial ignores the fundamental rules of magic, it generates resources that seem go beyond a one card one mana investment. It allows you cast your creatures spells as uncounterable and gives all of your creatures flash.

Also to address on whether cheating on mana is unfair or not. If cheating on mana is not unfair, why is Chrome Mox banned in Modern? Seething Song?

Affinity is generally a restricted mechanic in modern with the artifact lands banned, and its a mechanic which essentially allows you to cheat on mana.

Why are Black Lotus, Lotus Pedal, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl ect ect ect restricted in Vintage? The consensus seems to be that generating absurd amount of mana is in fact unfair.

Elvish Mystic/Noble Hiearch/rampant growth are probably “fixed” versions of their artifact counterparts. They require more resources and are more mana intense for the return that you receive.

Aether Vial and its ilk generate far more advantage over the course of the game or enable broken things that go beyond the investment of one/two card(s) and 0 or 1 mana should allow.

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121989 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:24:57 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121989 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Using that logic: X combo piece is part of the game of magic, therefore it is not unfair.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121988 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:30:20 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121988 In reply to Anonymous.

For sure, and I’m embarrassed for not having mentioned it in the article!

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121987 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 19:29:57 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121987 In reply to Galerion.

Interesting take, but can we can agree on Lantern Control being a Prison deck? If so, Prison isn’t “dead” by any means, even if it’s lost a lot of steam or lacks it in Modern (same with dedicated Weissman decks). In general, as you noted, it’s just better to be more proactive in this format, which is why Midrange performs the best out of all the “Control” decks in Modern.

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121986 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 14:46:57 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121986 Is 8-rack a prison deck?

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By: Galerion https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121985 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 10:09:00 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121985 While this is not directly related to the main topic, you did talk about Prison and Flores mentioned in his statement that it focuses on board control and in my opinion board control is what this game has become about and the most powerful decks are the majority of the time also the best decks focusing on controlling the board making dedicated Prison decks kinda superfluous.
I made a post on MTGSalvation about it and I don’t feel like typing all of that again and so will just copy it here.

Keep in mind that my post was in response to the statement that black has become the control color while blue has become the tempo color.

“And the reason for that is simple. Board-control is what this game has become about and black is far better suited for that than blue can ever hope to be. Simply because blue cannot actually interact with the board besides bouncing stuff which is notoriously bad outside of some tempo strategies since it’s card disadvantage.
It’s no coincidence that the best shells at board-control always find their way to the top and stay there. Mono-Black Devotion and Abzan as the most recent Standard examples and Jund, Abzan and nowadays also Grixis Control for Modern ones.

The receipt and basic principles are simple:
– I will simply deal with and remove your stuff.
Examples: Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Hero’s Downfall, Abzan Charm, Languish, Abrupt Decay, Ultimate Price, Bile Blight, Doom Blade, Terminate, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil, etc.

– I deploy my own stuff and the best thing about it is that it outclasses your stuff and makes it irrelevant. I don’t care about your Fleecemane Lions because you will never beat my Siege Rhinos or Elspeth, Sun’s Champions solely with them anyway.
Examples: Tarmogoyf, Siege Rhino, Desecration Demon, Pack Rat, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler, Elspeth, Sun’s Champion, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Olivia Voldaren, Scavenging Ooze, Thragtusk, etc.

Mono-Black Devotion really captured it the best. A mono-colored deck consisting of only 3 things: powerful and efficient removal/disruption, really powerful threats(I count Underworld Connections in this too) and lands to cast everything. So simple on the surface but it was enough to make it into the dominating monster that it was.
Jund in Modern was/is in the same boat. It was also dominating at one point and is still one of the best decks. It plays those 3 things too. It just needs to dip into 3 colors to get those things.

People wonder why Midrange specifically has become the most powerful archetype well here is why. It simply embodies this basic concept the best.”

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121984 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 07:56:59 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121984 In reply to Anonymous.

No, it’s a part of the game. Is Noble Hierarch unfair? How about Rampant Growth?

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121983 Sat, 29 Aug 2015 05:25:58 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121983 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Cheating on mana is not unfair?

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121982 Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:15:20 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121982 In reply to DNLK.

Aether Vial doesn’t allow players to win the game in an unfair way, so it’s not unfair. A better example of an unfair card is Ad Nauseam, which helps pilots win via nontraditional methods.

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By: DNLK https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121981 Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:10:02 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121981 What’s about Aether Vial? For me it seems unfair that player can put creatures from his hand without spending mana for it and actually “casting” them. Said merfolks gain huge tempo cause of Vial effectively doubling their mana in certain circumstances. Still, the deck is purely fair one, I can’t agree more on that, but Aether Vial is not!

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/08/fair-thee-well-modern-archetypes-part-3-2/#comment-2121980 Fri, 28 Aug 2015 17:26:04 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=4235#comment-2121980 I like the ongoing evolution of these articles, and I like the openness you’ve shown in putting aside your ego and focusing on making these as accurate and informative as possible. Hats off, man, these are becoming quite the resource to understand Magic deckbuilding on a theoretical level. I think that considering reach traditional is an excellent idea (given that it’s one of the major factors that separates successful aggro decks from the also-rans). I also find the differentiation between Weissman and prison control interesting, and probably necessary. As you said, Lantern Control and Jeskai Control want the same thing, but go about it in very different ways.

Provided these current definitions of fair/unfair and control stick… I would guess that combo’s next? If so, looking forward to it.

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