Comments on: On the Rogue Again: Innovation at SCG States, Part II https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Mon, 09 Nov 2015 11:17:28 +0000 hourly 1 By: Aubrey Patrick Bowen https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122680 Mon, 09 Nov 2015 11:17:28 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122680 In reply to Anonymous.

As far as the meta game goes, you only see that in Jund and Grixis though.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122679 Mon, 09 Nov 2015 05:41:50 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122679 In reply to DanW.

Green is something to consider for sure. It could potentially evolve from a pillowfort deck to an enchantress type of deck, though I’d really have to look the cards over to be sure. Porphyry Nodes would feel real bad in that hypothetical enchantress deck, unfortunately, because the creatures that you tend to want to mine for value are wimpy from the body POV.

And thanks for the shout-out man. I appreciate it. 🙂

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By: Anonymous https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122678 Mon, 09 Nov 2015 05:36:42 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122678 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Except that it dies to any removal that isnt Path or Bolt – which is Terminate, Dismember, Go for the Throat

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By: Aubrey Patrick Bowen https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122677 Sun, 08 Nov 2015 23:01:59 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122677 In reply to DanW.

Hey Dan, are you on tappedout.net at all? I’ve been throwing around making a pillowfort primer on there, I just suck at writing. Maybe you would be interested in working on one with me?

That aside, I’m a pillowfort brew builder too; I enjoy playing with 5 colors, for example here http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73318, but I’ve recently just been trying the two colors. I think the hardest time we have, overall, is permission decks. But, I like how you are willing to play non-enchantment cards, like faithless looting. Pretty cool.

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By: DanW https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122676 Sat, 07 Nov 2015 03:47:41 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122676 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Oh, hey fellas, I didn’t mean to imply that I disagree with you regarding War’s Toll, your assessment as usual is probably spot on. Especially, for competition at the highest levels. I’m simply trying to relate its general purpose in the deck. Where I’ve used it, I’ve had some decent results–however, neither my local meta nor MTGO provide pro level competition consistently, so take my statements for what they’re worth. It may be out of the box, but Currie seems to have done fairly well. If worked for him great, but It may not be everyone’s cup-o-tea. I think he’s crazy for not running green for its ability to accelerate the deck (something I think the deck badly needs) but again, I’m hardly an expert. I just enjoy seeing new decks challenge the meta in new ways.

As far as removal goes, Roland’s ideas regarding lightning helix seem great to me. I also forgot to mention that I’ve learned a great deal about modern from his comments as well while visiting the site. Lastly, don’t sleep on enchantment removal like Porphyry Nodes, they can be very potent. Although it tends to remove it self when Starfield lands, so that’s something to consider.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122675 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 22:51:57 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122675 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Well, the idea with all-in Tooth is to survive your guys being Bolted, or generate so much mana that Mana Leak just stops working properly. Given that slower hard counters like Cryptic Command are sort of being hated out of the format right now by all of the aggression, it’s not the worst idea.

And I think you’ve explained my thoughts on War’s Toll better than I have – it just reeks of jank.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122674 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 22:50:26 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122674 In reply to DanW.

As Jordan noted below, Defense Grid accomplishes the “protect me from countermagic” effect for just 2 mana, and making people choose between tapping for Ghostly or casting something doesn’t sound overly significant, given that it’s what most people opt to do anyway. The creature-based effect is also close to irrelevant in Prison, since you’re not tagging them on a backswing. I don’t think War’s Toll is all that great an effect, and certainly not for a whopping 4 mana.

I get splashing red for Ajani (he’s pretty great), but you might as well grab other good things in red while you’re there. I don’t see much reason to not pack Lightning Helix, given that the first few turns of this deck’s games are it hanging on for dear life until it can stabilize. The swing from removing an attacker and getting life is absolutely huge, especially against a burn deck or any other deck with reach that can ignore your lock effects.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122673 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 22:12:27 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122673 In reply to Roland F. Rivera Santiago.

The problem with an all-in Tooth deck is its weakness to countermagic, but Leak + clock is already hard for these kinds of decks to beat. On War’s Toll, I mostly agree with you. It seems to me like a jankier, two-card (still), eight-mana Isochron + Silence. Or, if the goal is to pacify counterspell decks, a jankier, eight-mana, two-card Defense Grid that only works against opponents with creatures.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122672 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 22:05:56 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122672 In reply to DanW.

Nice insights. I especially like the idea of Starfield of Nyx… with Fatihless Looting.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122671 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 22:03:39 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122671 In reply to sithis.

Wow, thanks for picking that up! Stormbreath Dragon is a great option in Modern because it’s hard to kill and tough to chump.

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By: DanW https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122670 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 20:12:16 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122670 In reply to Roland F. Rivera Santiago.

Hey there Roland,
Regarding Currie’s deck. I’d argue that Ajani is the purpose for red in his build. The synergy between War’s Toll and Ghostly Prison/Suppression field is the reason we play it. Yes, a player can float all of their mana in response to the tap trigger. But when that mana fizzles as the phase ends, it leaves the player unable to attack as they can’t pay the Ghostly tax. Conversely, should they decide to wait until the attack step to pay for an attack, this leaves them without the ability to cast spells during main phase two, or our turn.

The deck has some weaknesses to counter control–War’s Toll helps mitigate this by limiting the opponents options to attacks, or spells.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122669 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 20:01:11 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122669 As usual, I’m a fan of the article, Jordan. Allow me to offer up some comments:
1) I like the concept of this list (and I love the Obzedat backup plan), but are we really hitching our wagon to Monastery Siege as protection? Maybe it will work out better for a deck with a more deliberate gameplan than it did for Merfolk (where most players have moved on from the card, and the ones that haven’t likely will soon), but my opinion is that it comes out too late to matter. And if it’s there for the perma-loot, it feels a bit redundant with having 4 Jaces (and no, I don’t consider that it protects Jace a whole lot, since he dies to a stiff breeze).

2) I’m a bit leery of MBD given that it has no ability to interact with artifacts or enchantments (so no beating Lantern Control, Prison, or Affinity, ever), but that deck looks really fun. It also looks to be reasonably resilient (though I worry about Lashwrithe in a format where Kolaghan’s Command is so popular). I think I might want to experiment with Complete Disregard, Geth’s Verdict, or a small splash in order to handle creatures with pro-black.

3) This deck looks mean. It durdles a bit much for my taste (no matter how many lands you run, 4+ mana win-cons in a deck that blows its own lands up screams slooooooow), but it would probably be a bear for a lot of decks that don’t have countermagic, ramp, or the ability to vomit out their hands quickly to deal with.

4) I don’t think that splashing R just for War’s Toll (whose land trigger I’m assuming you can respond to by floating all of your mana and casting stuff – feels a bit underwhelming), Ajani Vengeant, and Blood Moon is worth it. It’s fine if you want to avoid the CMC1 removal (though Bolt in particular would be great here, since it avoids the non-bo that is Path + Ghostly Prison), but you have to at least think about cards like Lightning Helix and Wear // Tear.

5) I’ve taken an “all-in” variant of that Tooth & Nail list out for a spin. I doubled down on the combo by using Garruk in addition to Kiora, Fertile Ground in addition to Utopia Sprawl and Overgrowth, and Kiora’s Follower in addition to Arbor Elf and Voyaging Satyr). The deck is a blast to play, and I also found it to be redundant enough (and possessing enough cantrip power, thanks to Serum Visions and Harmonize) to shrug off the initial wave of disruption attempts. The Gifts version has its merits, but I’m not sure they trump just being really consistent on your comboing off.

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By: DanW https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122668 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:26:17 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122668 War’s Toll and Ghostly Prison’s time to shine.
I don’t comment often on threads because I’m certainly not an expert when it comes to the modern meta, breaking down facts and figures, but I have been playing a three color prison deck in various forms for a long time now online so I feel confident that I can speak with some knowledge.
So why War’s Toll, synergy with ghostly prison (or suppression field) shouldn’t be overlooked. These two cards in conjunction force opponents to surrender control of half of their turn. Essentially, because ghostly prison’s tax must be paid during the attack step, an opponent must determine if they would like to cast spells (in either M1 or M2) or attack during a turn—they cannot do both. This is particularly damning against control decks which want to leave mana open for counters. War’s toll essentially acts a massive tax, forcing opponents to tap out forcing either inopportune plays—or dead turns. (if you’re giggles come from living on the edge as mine do, pair it with Manabarbs—and Runed Halo for extra giggles.)
I could extol the merits of prison decks in the current meta quite a bit, as you noticed, suppression field shuts down twin and fetchlands, but it also shuts down Griselbrand and planeswalkers, Aether Vial and anything that Cycles. Suppression field is a powerhouse, however, as a prison player myself I have to mention that in Currie’s build it also neuters his own Ajani Vengeant as well as Heliod. Now, of course once Nykthos gets up and running this is less of a concern, it can become an issue.
I like much of what Currie has done in his build, and Matt if you’re reading this, don’t let anyone bust your chops about running 4 Leylines in your main—as you know, the card hoses everything from Bolt to thoughtsieze to Gifts Ungiven (that’s right—Gifts targets opponents). What I don’t see in his build is a card that I believe has pushed Enchantment decks in to viability as a competitive option and that’s Starfield of Nyx. It’s a bomb that is very difficult for many decks to overcome. Yes, at 5 mana it’s a stretch to cast at times but, in my G/W/X builds it can be done as early as turn three with birds, utopia sprawl, and herald. Currie’s deck clearly has some great competitive elements and with a knowledgeable pilot behind the wheel, Nevermore can be crippling to huge swaths of the meta.
From the stand point of Sideboarding, I like much of what Currie is doing, all except Chalice of the Void (I just prefer Defense Grid). Kor Firewalker is good, although Sanctimony trigger’s Sigil and beefs up Sphere of Safety, is easier to cast, and is harder to remove. But it can’t block Ravager of the Fells or Vexing Devil so, it’s a personal choice.
From my novice point of view, the redundancy in Currie’s build might be more of a detriment than a boon in some cases (this was my experience…) Opening hands consisting of 2 or 3 five drops can happen quite frequently with this deck and in this meta that’s a must mull—even if you have 3 lands. For me, this is where Green becomes a must have.
I can’t stress how much more consistent my play has been with green in the build. W/G/X allows me to consistently drop a turn 2 Ghostly prisons via G/X Shock and Utopia Sprawl/Birds of Paradise. Eidolon of Blossoms, while very boltable, is a remarkable source of card draw—particularly with Heliod and Nykthos. Don’t forget, it becomes a 4/4 with Starfield. Green also provides us with Eye’s of the Wisent as a board optioni (or voice if you want the critter) helping to keep counter-based control honest.
As of right now, I’m playing 3 versions of the deck
Abzan build which utilizes Doomwake Giant to help keep the board clear, Phyrexian Arena, and Abzan Charm. This build is an attrition build in which I draw and draw and draw to get to Heliod, Sigil, or Starfield and win.
A Bant Build which utilizes Gifts Ungiven to go and fetch up Starfield, Eternal Witness, Open the Vaults, and Omniscience. Bant gives us access to Serum Visions and Monastery Siege which helps us dig for our prisons and wincons
Naya gives us access to the aforementioned War’s Toll and Manabarbs, as well as Pyrohemia or Ajani (if you don’t mind paying activation costs) and Faithless Looting, which does wonders for enabling Starfield. We use Citadel Siege to help us move through the deck a bit faster. This build requires Runed Halo in the main, but that card is amazing so it’s not a problem.
Can these decks stand up to everything? No, Tron, Amulet Bloom, and elves (damn you archdruid!) tend to be issues, for me at least. But fish, twin, tokens, jund, affinity, burn, zoo, etc. against these decks—we can even the odds and make help make the meta a bit more fair—and in this linear world, couldn’t we all use a bit more fairness?
I hope I haven’t written too much.
Thanks for all you do with this site, I love it. And have learned a great deal from you guys. Keep up the great work.

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By: sithis https://www.quietspeculation.com/2015/11/on-the-rogue-again-innovation-at-scg-states-part-ii/#comment-2122667 Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:08:30 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=5423#comment-2122667 Hi 🙂 I really enjoy your articles simply because innovation is what makes magic fun. The decks you searched together really show what is possible. I’m currently working on a Dega midrange deck but am unsure how to close things off. I currently have 3 butchers of the horde but don’t like them. Maybe demigod?

Anyways great article 🙂 you have a small mistake in it: The pillowfort is also called pox like the dega deck before it.

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