Echoing truth is the decks only answer for enchantments, then make them discard or counter…

Yes, of course it is not favoured. I just think it is better than the Grixis Control chapin list. 🙂

What I was already doing:

– Pia and Kiran: Have been running 2 for the last 3 months, and it’s been amazing every single time. Nothing to add here.

– Go for the Throat: 1 gftt instead of 1 terminate, makes all the sense even if it’s dead vs affinity u can discard it to jace or lili.

– Snapcaster: 3 of is probably the right number, as 8 flashback effects is a tad overdoing it in my experience.

– Counterspells: 2 mana leak 1 remand is the correct choice in an aggro oriented format. If every1 is playing blue counterspells and big mana “combo” decks (bloom, tron, scapeshift) then the split should be reversed imo.

What I’m not doing:

– Grim Lavamancer: interesting in the mainboard; atm it is a sideboard for me, but I can see it being flexible enough; things that worry me are the junds and twins of this world, using electrolyze, bolt, and k command better in most games than they usually would, since Jace flips rather quickly. Will most likely try this though, as I feel twin and Jund as easy enough match ups for grixis that we can suffer this loss in % to gain elsewhere.

– Rise // Fall: I cannot seem to like this card. Fall: It’s pretty good when you hymn the other grindy midrange deck (twin, jund, etc), it’s ok to take the opp last 2 burn spells if drawn in the earliest turns of the game. It fails too often to deal with the most dificcult match ups: burn and big mana decks (tron, bloom, scapeshift). Rise: More difficult to use amazingly as it requires both targets…most times I wished this was only the raise dead part as the opp is on 0 creatures or too many creatures for 2 mana bounce to matter. I feel the 3rd k command is better in most situations as it is always a 2 for 1, having more important flexibility and more board impact most of the times.

– Dreadbore: tried it, it’s ok vs lili and ok vs karn, but that doesn’t make it superior to instant speed kill your mutavault, ravine, titan, exarch that terminate provides.

– 3rd Thoughtscour: imo 1 too many without grim lavamancer, could be right with it.

Cheers,

Paul.

Jund does not grind harder at all. Pia and Kiran Nalaar beats Liliana everytime, and playing PKN 3x over the course of a game is usually enough to win. Post board I bring in land destruction (2 molten rain + 1 Fulminator, which is easy to recur and flashback) as well that can just win the game on T3/4. Casting molten rain and killing a land + Lilly is pretty sweet and has happened more than once. It’s a 50/50 Matchup, and I usually come out on top when paired against jund.

RIP is tough, but white isn’t a popular color right now and I usually already have a really good matchup against the decks that would bring it in. It’s also pretty easy to get rid of with Engineered Explosives, which I run 2 of in the board. Regardless, RIP effects have been a thing that we’ve had a solid plan against for a long time.

Initially Blue Jund players were running Abbots to have a threat that generates CA without getting wrecked by RIP, then a lot of us switched to Young Pyromancer because Abbot was too slow and counterspells are good. Then PKN got printed and a few people pointed out how dumb that card actually was, and a lot of players have made the switch with no intentions of looking back.

I do get absolutely wrecked by Burn and Tron almost every time though (much like jund does). Having to keep them off Tron the whole game is tough, and the new Ulamog just ends the game basically every time. Collected Company decks can be rough, but much better post board.

That costs 3-4 mana, though. Merfolk and Affinity usually don’t give you that kind of time unless you’re landing disruption every single turn and they happen to not draw cards or counter things.

And there’s the pesky problems of not having many fliers and using Islands, which means you can’t block them once they have a board state up. I can see a path to victory for this deck, but It’s not favored.

8 Snapcaster Mages assure that you always have recursive bolts terminates KK’s etc.
Against Affinity and Merfolk it is so strong play.

I feel that the best version of Grixis is the Grixis Delver version where you can play aggro or midrangey and have 4 Snapcasters to disrupt your opponent and grind them down.

Tapping out for Jace, VP is always bad from what I see. Having to protect Jace, VP after resolving him is worst. Grixis Delver was powerful for what it is because it cased only 1 cc spells during its turn and holds up mana to disrupt your opponent AND rarely cares what you did to their creatures because they can bring them back with Kolaghan’s Cmd or they have more.

Maybe Jace, VP should be cut to 2 copies in the deck and let the main engine of the deck be from the original Grixis Delver build.

Regards
N.

The article mentions Pia and Kiran Nalaar as an out to Lingering Souls, in effect, but what about Electrolyze? I feel like it fills the same roll in general, and is easier on the mana. Pia and Kiran are recurrable, yes, but between the mana costs to set that up and relative vulnerability to graveyard hate (as others have mentioned) they feel a little clunky to me. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see if they’re what will firmly cement the deck in the upper tiers.

I’ll third that graveyard hate is the way to beat grixis played a lot with it and against it. Jund just grinds harder and better than grixis. Lilliana is better than jace in modern.

Agreed. Targeted discard and Liliana doesn’t save BGx against Merfolk, and they have Abrupt Decay. They definitely won’t save this deck.

I hesitate to say that this deck is straight-up worse than the other midrange decks, though. It’s still in the brewing phase, and I’m not sure that we’ve seen the optimal configuration yet. I definitely think this isn’t it (this deck is still very graveyard-dependent, and some of the choices make me scratch my head a bit), so we’ll see if something comes of it. It may still be hated out of the format (it still can’t deal with Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, and Rest in Peace, all of which worries me), but we have to wait and see.

This deck is a dog to Merfolk – how can you say it has great game against aggro? This deck is simply a worse version of the multitude of other midrange decks that you can play.

Hilarious – agreed – grixis was always garbage and it still is.

Other than that, while I like Jaces, I think that playing less than 4 copies of snap is just wrong. I’m in the YP camp, just like George, but it’s debatable. YP version is better against linear decks, while Jaces/Mamas&Papas/RiseFall shines in grindfest. IMHO it all depends on expected metagame, but great article nonetheless

Regards,
TFSS

I like:
1) Great game against aggro creature based decks such as Merfolks, Affinity, Zoo etc, a department we always had problems about.
2) Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
3) Lingering Souls can be fighted in a realistic way.

What do you thing becomes the worst/best matchups like that?

Regards, gkourou.

1. While the deck has made some strides in ameliorating its dependency on the graveyard, I agree with Darcy Hartwick in that hate will still cause you some pain. Is it worth adding some sideboard cards to address living without it? Because while Engineered Explosives (which you don’t have, by the way) will let you pop Rest in Peace, this deck still has no answer to Leyline of the Void.

2. How do you answer Leyline of Sanctity turning off Liliana and your targeted discard (and the option to aim burn spells at people’s faces, for that matter)? Unlike BGx, you can’t shrug and Maelstrom Pulse.

3. Could you see this concept working somewhat similarly in Sultai? You lose Bolt (ouch), Terminate (double ouch), Kommand (triple ouch), and Pia and Kiran (not sure if this is an ouch, but probably), but you gain access to Goyf, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and all of UG’s underrated (IMO) suite of tricks.

Here are some things I and others in my playgroup have tested in this shell that have given us a lot of success that i think others should consider; especially if you’re in a similar build as Jessup.

Cavern of Souls – All 12 creatures are human and this helps with color fixing as the only double spells are 1 Liliana and 2 Pia & Kiran. Between Twin, Scapeshift & the mirror making up over 13% of the online meta and having IoK & Rise // Fall, it affords you the ability to leave their counter magic and focus on their removal.

Izzet Charm – I’ve replaced remand with this card and it always over performs, early / mid its pierce or shock, mid / late its shock to possibly trade up or more card selection that goes hand in hand with the core of this deck.

Forbidden Alchemy – If DTT was legal this deck would jam it even though it competes with everything sans P&K. Alchemy is half as powerful as dig for virtually the same amount of mana, while also being easier on the base and stocks the yard. 4 < 8 but often you find an answer + ancillary piece. You can flash it back for 6B [flash back] / 3UU [snapcaster] / 2U [Jace]. I strongly encourage everyone to test it out, what is old is new again.

here is what my current MD looks like:

Creature (12)
4x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Grim Lavamancer

Spells (25)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Mana Leak
2x Terminate
2x Thought Scour
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Rise // Fall
1x Izzet Charm
1x Dreadbore

Land (23)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Steam Vents
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Cavern of Souls

My latest list is close to that M.R one, but i dont like Tasigur in Twin, he feels underwhelming every time i play it, even on turn 3. And every time i activate his ability, i get something useless in a late game.

I’m doing Ripper’s list, +1 IoK, +1 Thoughtseize (i think 4 discard is where you want to be), -2 Tasigur, +1 Pia, -1 Kolghan’s Command, -1 Go for the Throat, +1 Murd Cut.

I wish i could abuse delve more, its a busted mechanic, but Tasigur in Twin… just dont like it. I usually Twin off, or win through snap/bolts or Pia beats.

Twin on Pia is so awesome, i might add all 4 Twins and have 4 Exarchs and the 2 Pia’s as “enablers”, but i havent tested that yet.

I agree. What do you think of Matt Ripper’s winning list at SCG St. Louis?