Comments on: Back to Basics: Temur Delver at SCG States, Part I https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Wed, 04 May 2016 00:29:21 +0000 hourly 1 By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125404 Wed, 04 May 2016 00:29:21 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125404 In reply to T.J. Timusk.

Hey man, I seent it. Modern is like Diddy hosting the 2005 VMAs – anything could happen.

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By: T.J. Timusk https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125403 Mon, 02 May 2016 15:18:48 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125403 Good writeup, it’s always great to read someone who has taken the time to learn their deck But who the hell plays form of the dragon in modern?

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125402 Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:06:33 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125402 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

That’s the general idea, but the way this deck plays changes drastically depending on the matchup. Against Merfolk, that’s not what this deck does at all. I think it’s a question of experience, since I had all the same problems when I started playing the deck and don’t have them anymore.

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By: Darcy Hartwick https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125401 Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:45:38 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125401 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

shelving it for now but my experience is far closer to what Roland described. “just bolt their lords” well they have like 16 lords and we have 4 bolts, 1 tarfire, and maybe 1 seal of fire (i have been using curiousity there instead personally). They are on avg going to draw twice as many lords as we draw bolts. This is not grixis, jund, or jeskai where we are packing upwards of 12 cheap removal spells and a set of snapcasters and can just leave them with cursecatchers and silvergills.

Unless I’m mistaken the idea of this deck is stick 1-2 threats and protect them. Merfolk and D&T don’t try very hard to kill the 1-2 threats so our “protection” becomes largely a liability (esp when even mana leak gets nuked by cavern/vial), and when it comes down to a race our 4/5 and 4/4 do not move as fast as merfolks exponential growth and D&T can make brutal value plays like chump-flicker re-buying an ETB or just throwing a finks or blade splicer under the bus to buy time.

I like the deck, but I think its misleading to call merfolk or D&T (or vial/cavern decks in general) good matchups.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125400 Sat, 30 Apr 2016 01:23:44 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125400 In reply to Roland F. Rivera Santiago.

On paper, it definitely seems like a spell-based aggro deck would lose to a creature-based one. But in my experience, most of Roland’s beefs with Delver strategies vs. Vial ones don’t actually apply to Temur Delver. Granted, I have yet to play against a Wall of Resurgence, but the GWx Vial decks I have played against over the last year have been really easy to neuter with Pyroclasm, Bolt, Moon, and Huntmaster. Between the artifact hate for Chalice/Skite/Vial, burn spells, and our ability to smoothly operate without perfect mana, Merfolk has also been really easy for me to beat. For reference, here’s my plan sideboard against the more popular of the two decks, Merfolk, with the above list:

-3 Thought Scour
-3 Stubborn Denial
-3 Mana Leak
-2 Gitaxian Probe

+4 Huntmaster of the Fells
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Destructive Revelry
+1 Natural State
+2 Pyroclasm
+1 Mountain

And some vs. Merfolk tips:
– Fetch a lot of red shocks (and Mountain!) to get around Spreading Seas. Don’t worry so much about your life total – you’re going to remove the Lords anyway, and Goyf/Mandrills play great defense against a 2/1.
– Favor openers that deal with Vial and Lords. A hand with Serum Visions, Bolt, Grudge, any other spell, and some lands is an auto-keep.
– Dig for lands when you have Huntmaster in hand and for removal when you don’t. The threats will come to you, and time is on your side anyway, so don’t worry about slamming creatures as fast as possible.
– Remember you can bounce Master of Waves with Simic Charm and blow out blocks or all-in attacks. If you kill Vial, it’s also pretty easy to Mana Leak barring a Cavern. Either way, it rarely makes many 2/1’s post-board, since we have so much removal for the other creatures.
– Pace your Pyroclasms to get the biggest blowout (on a board with two lords, combine it with Simic Charm bounce mode or a Bolt). Clasm also kills Master of Wave tokens, which is sometimes relevant.
– Don’t play three-drop sweepers like Radiant Flames.

Darcy, I encourage you to grind the matchup yourself and see if your win % increases. Temur Delver can be frustrating for some players because it requires so many reps to master. But if you put in enough hours, the deck will reward you. Have fun and let me know if you have any questions.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125399 Sat, 30 Apr 2016 00:53:10 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125399 In reply to Roland F. Rivera Santiago.

Shoal is golden in so many Modern matchups that I wouldn’t want to play this deck without it. I think this deck can trim Shoals with some success, though, especially when it brings in Snares to replace them. I tried a 3-1 Shoal/Snare split for a couple weeks last month and usually wanted a Shoal instead, so I put the fourth back in and cut Snare. I also tried Snare in the board specifically for those Tarmogoyf decks, and it was okay there. The problem with a sideboard Snare is we lack slots. The version I was testing cut Curiosity and Mountain for two Snares. The card can definitely work in this deck, I think it mostly comes down to expected metagame and personal preference. Some people really hate Shoals, for instance, and they should definitely load up on Snares IMO.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125398 Sat, 30 Apr 2016 00:50:19 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125398 In reply to Ryan Heuer.

I don’t usually respond to comments like these, since I have nothing constructive to contribute, but I love seeing them. Keep grinding and learning, and have fun! Part 2 will be out on Monday.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125397 Sat, 30 Apr 2016 00:48:42 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125397 In reply to Kevork Agh.

Really not my kind of deck, but something like this will definitely win at locals sometimes, at least. Right off the bat though, I think Visions is a 4- or 0-card in the main.

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125396 Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:09:43 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125396 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

I actually disagree with this assertion. Merfolk is usually at its best when it has blue decks to prey on both in Modern and Legacy, and the fact that Delver damages itself and is vulnerable to tempo plays like Harbinger of the Tides and Vapor Snag only exacerbates the weakness. Death & Taxes also lines up well against any mostly spell-based deck, especially one that is light on the boardwipes (2 Pyroclasm is not going to lead you to the promised land) and reliant on threats that can easily be blocked by the likes of Wall of Resurgence on the ground or Restoration Angel in the air. And then there’s the whole Chalice of the Void issue (both decks can use it with few ill effects, and it’s a huge impediment to Delver decks).

With regards to what to actually do about it… Engineered Explosives (on 2 for Merfolk and 3 for D&T) can do some good work for you, and Ancient Grudge to blow up Vial (or Chalice, if it shows up postboard) can also help. Huntmaster is neat, but I wouldn’t pin my hopes on just that, as it tends to be on the slow side (and does a whole lot of nothing against something like Master of Waves/Tidebinder Mage/Wall of Resurgence). You could also consider Radiant Flames as a beefier sweeper that (usually) doesn’t touch Goyf or Mandrills, but gets a wide variety of their guys. Essentially, going 1-for-1 with them will typically result in your losing, but getting 2-for-1s or better could get you there.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125395 Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:44:47 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125395 In reply to Darcy Hartwick.

Vial decks are good matchups for this deck. Bring in all your artifact removal (all of it!). Those decks are way too slow to keep up with Goyf, Bolt, and Huntmaster if you can remove the artifact. Shoal is important in Game 1 for stopping Aether Vial, but you can also do it with a Denial on the play (Probe helps here). I also like Shoal for two in Games 2 and 3 against Merfolk, since I blow up Vial a lot. And the GWx Vial decks struggle against Blood Moon, even more so if they play Cavern. Good luck!

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By: Roland F. Rivera Santiago https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125394 Fri, 29 Apr 2016 19:00:29 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125394 Good to see you back on Delver, Jordan, and congratulations on the Top-8 (though you’ll be sharing the full details of how you got there with us next week). Given the admitted troubles that your current shell has with 2-drop creatures such as Bob and Goyf, would it be worth your while to include Spell Snare in the 75 in some way? It can get pitched to Shoal when irrelevant, and it’s always live against the guys I mentioned, plus other threats like Plating, Searing Blaze, Merfolk Lords, etc. This would also make it easier to trim all of your Shoals, thus exposing you less to those nasty being-behind-on-cards situations that we all know Jund feasts upon.

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By: Ryan Heuer https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125393 Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:23:36 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125393 Thanks for the write-up! Temur Delver has an extremely punishing learning curve, but it’s my favorite deck in Modern. Took me weeks and weeks of getting pounded at LGS Modern night before started getting any consistent wins.

I’ll be looking forward for the part 2 of this article!

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By: Kevork Agh https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125392 Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:24:29 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125392 This and the Wednesday articles are all I care about. Make more!

Not related to Temur Delver, but would a Temur Moon do any good in your opinion? Something to the tune of:

Land (22)
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
6x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
2x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (6)
3x Ancestral Vision
3x Serum Visions

Instant (18)
2x Condescend
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
4x Remand
2x Repeal
1x Tarfire

Creature (10)
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf

Enchantment (3)
3x Blood Moon

Planeswalker (1)
1x Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
2x Batterskull
1x Destructive Revelry
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
2x Kozilek’s Return
2x Negate
2x Shattering Spree
2x Spellskite

Maybe a brew with something like this is worth while? Not sure.

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By: Darcy Hartwick https://www.quietspeculation.com/2016/04/back-basics-temur-delver-scg-states-part-1/#comment-2125391 Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:11:42 +0000 http://34.200.137.49/?p=9201#comment-2125391 Been trying this deck lately myself and getting obliterated by aether vial cavern of souls decks that turn every denial leak shoal into a dead draw. Last night I also played prized amalgam dredge – a deck that casts 0-1 spells total by turn 3-4.

I like the deck and am probably just unlucky but man its frustrating when your countermagic gets blanked and you’re stuck trying to win a game with a mandril and a goyf against unblockable merfolks or a pair of flickerwisp.

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