Comments on: Bloodbraid Month, Pt. 4: Quantitative Data https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:16:34 +0000 hourly 1 By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129120 Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:16:34 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129120 In reply to NewFemtex.

Exactly what was reported. All the individual results are out of 50. So for the Affinity matchup both the test Jund deck and the control Jund deck won 28 matches and 28/50=56%.

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129119 Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:12:53 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129119 In reply to Graeme Holliday.

Tron may or may not be able to hold down Jund, but it isn’t the only big mana deck out there. For example, I doubt that Valakut decks suddenly become good matchups because of Bloodbraid.

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By: NewFemtex https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129118 Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:56:25 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129118 In reply to David Ernenwein.

So what are the actual win percentages for each then? These percentages obviously doesn’t make it very clear to us novice statisticians because, to me, the “total wins” would be the decks actual “win percentage”? Obviously, this is not the case, so, I’m unsure of how to get the actual win percentage from these results.

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By: Graeme Holliday https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129117 Thu, 25 Jan 2018 05:22:55 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129117 In reply to David Ernenwein.

Makes sense. It’s just that I’ve always viewed Jund vs. Tron as the defining polarizing matchup of the format, the epitome of a matchup you might as well give up since there’s nothing you can reasonably do to improve it. So if BBE actually improves Jund to an even matchup, to me that’s ringing some serious alarm bells. If big mana can’t prey on Jund, what can?

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129116 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 20:30:22 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129116 In reply to Graeme Holliday.

You are correct that each of those improvements are marginal, though you put enough marginal buffs together and they add up. The real reason is how the matchup dynamic has changed. Jund wins by doing something slightly more powerful than you at every point of its curve. Tron wins by doing something significantly better on turn three and each turn thereafter. That’s why Tron’s such a bad matchup, it’s overpowering everything Jund has and requires either specific answers and lots of them. The way to beat Tron is by swarming it. Creature swarms or decks that can just play lots of spells make up for that individual power deficit in bulk so that Tron struggles to keep up (unless they have Ugin). Bloodbraid lets you play two spells a turn and that quantity helps with the power deficit, which greatly improves the matchup. I don’t think it becomes favorable, but even is definitely possible. Remember, Tron preyed on Jund in 2012 but it wasn’t oppressing it.

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By: Graeme Holliday https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129115 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:44:43 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129115 The thing I find most interesting is the drastic increase in winrate against Tron. On paper, that doesn’t make any sense to me… I can see a marginal improvement but there’s nothing about BBE that is inherently useful against Tron. Perhaps the ability to kill a Karn that just -3’d? That can’t come up that often though. Same goes with cascading into Fulminators or at least digging further towards them. Aren’t these super marginal bonuses? Additionally, if there was an insurgence of Bloody Jund, Tron would probably add a couple more Wurmcoils, making Jund’s life way harder. Bottom line: I don’t ever see Jund getting a better than 40% winrate against Tron without heavily warping its sideboard.

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129114 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 16:29:18 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129114 In reply to ben coley.

The Ponza Elf decks were usually Zoo-style and ran Boom//Bust (do a search on mtgtop8), but that isn’t a hittable target anymore with the CMC rule change on split cards. Not saying Elf wouldn’t improve the RUG wedge generally, just that it wouldn’t suddenly birth a good RUG deck, as it doesn’t solve any of the combination’s problems.

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By: Ben Corbett https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129113 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:31:28 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129113 In reply to Darcy Hartwick.

Cascade doesn’t care about what is on top…you keep flipping til you find something to cast.

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By: ben coley https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129112 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:58:54 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129112 In reply to Jordan Boisvert.

Tell you what though, as an extra option in the card pool, RUG players would rejoice at having the option, even if jund overall was a better fit for the card.

Some sort of aggro/ponza list? I can recall these decks existing back around kamigawa standard and I’m sure stone rain was hit off cascade many times in modern before the elf was confined to a cage :D. Not proposing any sort of top tier viability, but most of modern is brewtopia anyway. The tiered, visible portion of modern is such a small (albeit influential) slice i’m sure RUG would be happy to welcome the elf back to the fold.

Regards,

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By: Jordan Boisvert https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129111 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:40:25 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129111 In reply to Jonathon Adam Jackman.

RUG lacks decent hits besides AV. Goyf and Scooze as threats, sure, but then what? Bob, Lili, KC, Decay, Brutality… black just has so many amazing cascade targets. And RUG can’t really interact with noncreature spells because permission clashes with cascade and blue lacks targeted discard (not that your creature removal is even passable in these colors). I’m pessimistic.

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By: Jonathon Adam Jackman https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129110 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 06:35:58 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129110 Have you tried bloodbraid in a temur midrange type shell exploiting the cascade into ancestral vision? I think it could become a real deck but i am not sure exactly what it would look like

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129109 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 04:15:36 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129109 In reply to Gino Killiko.

You are reading it wrong. When I did the individual stats I said Control/test deck wins: total wins, win percentage. You are reading the total wins as the win percentage.

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By: Gino Killiko https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129108 Wed, 24 Jan 2018 03:58:46 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129108 No one else has asked this so I’m sure I’m just missing something, but even after a re-read I can’t figure it out, how exactly do your win% stats vs individual decks work? You stated that your overall win% was around 50%, yet in the individual matchups I see nothing above 33%. What am I reading wrong, and what (assuming you have the numbers) was Jund’s win% vs each deck (control version & test deck)?

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By: Darcy Hartwick https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129107 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:37:30 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129107 In reply to David Ernenwein.

I do like that you’re splitting the subjective from the objective more clearly with the staggered articles. And I think it’s fair to just say with no adaptation by the meta bbe improves a number of key matches for Jund by around ten percent. I’d have to go back and see how that number compares to your other tests. I feel like it is way higher than the stone forge results.

I also think it’s tough in the abstract to know what percent increase would be dangerous for the format. Its relative obviously as moving a twenty percent deck up to fourty is fine but moving a fourty five to sixty five is not. So there’s probably an absolute you don’t want to cross like sixty percent vs the gauntlet?

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129106 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:07:49 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129106 In reply to ben coley.

This is what next week’s article will be addressing.

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By: ben coley https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129105 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:34:41 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129105 At this stage I think there’s some questions I’d ask about the general validity of a test like this.

Incredible effort by the way. All in the name of learning more, it’s really great to see.

Let’s examine a couple of things you’ve said though:

1) tron matchups. You indicate that more wurmcoils would almost invalidate the added bonus from including bloodbraid. I’m inclined to agree. What’s tricky here is what this means in the wider context. Tron players often fluidly shift around on numbers of cards depending on the metagame. You can bet that within a week or so, if bloodbraid was unleashed, the composition of threats would change accordingly, thereby making your results here a bit less valid.

What’s more, every deck would do this, to varying degrees. It’s possible that your snapshot from which you are taking the sample matches may be giving unfairly weighted results :S

Although on the other hand, modern (when taken as a whole) is a vast soup of decks and players often deviate from a generally accepted ‘optimal’ build, so the counter argument is that at least this data means something in the abstract, even if it doesn’t apply to a changing fluid metagame.

I don’t envy your defense of these data. If this was a postgrad thesis i’m sure the prof would have a lot to say 😛

Either way it was an enjoyable read and I’m thankful for your effort here. I don’t currently know of anyone else doing something like this so it’s not only a novelty but there might be some interesting lessons from it as well.

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129104 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:00:58 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129104 In reply to Darcy Hartwick.

Like I said, it is weird. I definitely saw Santa a lot this time, I’m not denying it. That’s why I never liked Bloodbraid back in the day, it always seemed like that was the norm. Though it was three Fulminators not two.

As for Burn, it wasn’t that bad a matchup in 2012 and I imagine it wouldn’t be the worst now either. Yes, Bob is a huge liability there but there have been times when Jund ran him alongside Hit // Run, so maybe you don’t care. You do still board him out against Burn, an Thoughtseize actually isn’t bad against Burn since it’s functionally gaining one life per burn spell it takes. Inquisition is miles better though.

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By: Darcy Hartwick https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129103 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:52:02 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129103 In reply to David Ernenwein.

I do still think finding land or elf on top two thirds of the time isn’t right when those cards are more like a generous fourty percent of the deck than sixty six.

Similarly your board had two finks two fulminator and an anger. I don’t see many matches where all five come in, and on game one you have eleven one cmc cards vs six three cmcs anyways. The best scenario would maybe see your count of one’s and threes balanced putting avg cascade cmc squarely at two.

Basically a ten percent jump in wins seems pretty high and I wonder if you just incidentally ran into an awful lot of Christmas lands with your cascades. I would also expect you lose serious points vs burn or other fast aggro with a set of seize and bobs and bobs flipping elves.

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By: David Ernenwein https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129102 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:32:09 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129102 In reply to Darcy Hartwick.

About 1/3 of the time there was a target on top. The mode of the cascade data is two by quite a large margin, however I had enough long cascades to pull the average up significantly, including 16 instances of cascade 6.
And yes, the 2.7 is weird to the point of anomaly. I did hit Liliana and Kommand an inordinate amount of time, but the data set also included sideboard games where I had far more 3-drops and that shifted the average up. Also, between three draw steps minimum and often some Bob triggers, you tend to draw a lot of your 1- and 2- drops naturally before you could play Bloodbraid at all, making it more likely to hit high drops.

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By: Ian Robertson https://www.quietspeculation.com/2018/01/bloodbraid-month-4-quantitative-data/#comment-2129101 Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:27:14 +0000 http://quietspeculation.com/?p=17148#comment-2129101 While the results are not surprising, I think it should be pointed it out that if Bloodbraid Elf was taken off the banlist the metagame would likely adjust. The decks tested represent decks unprepared for a more powerful Jund. If Jund suddenly saw a resurgence do to an elf unban I would think the meta would change enough to tamp down the huge swings in win percentage shown here. Jeskai (AV or a more control list without geist) and Tron especially could make adjustments to make the matchup more favorable.

I personally would like to see Bloodbraid Elf come off the banlist. Modern is a format of “unfair” decks and bloodbraid is the exact sort of card non-blue decks need to keep up with the nonsense in the format.

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