Comments on: White Knights and Neckbeards – On Growing Up and Hostility to Women https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/ Play More, Win More, Pay Less Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:49:27 +0000 hourly 1 By: Ganman3 https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-1037348 Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:49:27 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-1037348 If we could have a serious discussion without use of a term like “neckbeard,” that would be awesome, considering you’re trying to talk about social advancement, and stereotypes like these are harmful.

The card thing is an issue with the anime community. It’s a symptom of a problem, not a problem in itself. There are some instances where anime objectifies men too. Those are quite a bit less common than the alternative, but I digress.

But with anime, you’re talking about something that comes from a culture that’s comparatively backwards with gender roles. Women are even more feminized there, and much more strongly objectified, and that culture feeds into ours through our consumption of anime, manga, and merchandise.

The point? You can’t tackle this social issue through one small example of its impact on society.

But really though. “White knight,” “neckbeard”… these are ad hominem terms that contribute nothing. Rather than trying to look at tougher issues, we are invalidating people.

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By: Cassandra https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-311753 Thu, 18 Dec 2014 10:24:02 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-311753 I was originally gonna jump in here to point out how I’ve played Magic since 2001 and the worst I’ve experienced is some awkward guys, but no one who was outright aggressive to me because of my gender (I’d always ask around the store if someone seemed like kind of an ass, and I would always get told something along the lines of “Oh, he’s just a bit grumpy, it’s nothing to do with you, he always does this”).

Then I saw your comment and I thought I’d highlight it. This is actual misogyny. Not the awkward guys who try to flirt with you for a bit, not the anime alters, none of that stuff. It’s this. These people who think of females as different people and who think women only play Magic to get some poon-tang. These idiots from the pick-up artist mindset who think that the only thing on a woman’s mind is finding a man. This is what’s toxic. If you want to point something out as creating a hostile environment, here it is. I don’t care if someone is awkward about interacting with the opposite gender, and I will only be slightly miffed if someone decides to shove their fap material in my face. But if someone starts assuming that I’m only “here with my boyfriend”, I’m gonna be annoyed. I was the one who taught my husband to play Magic. I’m still the one clarifying rules for him when something obscure pops up. I’m still the one of us with an encyclopedic knowledge of useless cards. Stop making assumptions – you don’t know anything.

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By: Jo https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-206672 Sun, 12 Oct 2014 07:15:12 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-206672 Privileged is a term used by social justice warriors it refers to their marxist worldview in which women are an oppressed class and men are a privileged class, not that I didn’t see plenty of red flags before that. Sad that so many otherwise intelligent people don’t bother to look into this worldview’s flaws and see the logical fallacies and factually false premises that inform it.

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By: Bobbilytus Choppenstantz https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-194015 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 20:45:03 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-194015 In reply to Jes Golbez.

Notice how one person says the percent is too low, the other says it’s too high. Anecdotal evidence is not the same as empirical data, for this very reason – just because overall the playerbase is listed as 10% female, doesn’t mean ANY given environment has one girl per ten guys. Each area is different, and the figure is looking at the big picture, which will show peaks and valleys in different communities.

Personally, I’ve met mixed response when girl gamers are involved. The only constant ever seems that they are treated a bit different and they notice, though it seems to “wear off” as they continue to participate and “earn respect”

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By: Bobbilytus Choppenstantz https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193966 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 20:36:43 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193966 In reply to Jason Alt.

Jason was and is right. The First Amendment says the government can’t infringe on what you say, offensive or otherwise. However, the laws of our country make it very clear that these rights are not bullet-proof – they are subject to you’re knowledge of what you do with them, and the situation. They CAN be revoked. Such as the classic “yelling fire in a movie theater”, creating a clear and present danger is typically a top reason people know of. Much the same, contracts can ask you to literally sign away and surrender you’re rights. Anyone has the right to ask you this. Your job does it, that’s why you can’t say anything you want, and can be fired for what you say. Your right to have that offensive speech protected was surrenders when you agreed to work there and follow their private rules.

As such, the first amendment does not guarantee your right to be offensive at Hobby Lobby. They have every legal right to decide on their own how to handle your speech, as far as it violates their rules or otherwise effects their business/establishment. Jason Alt is absolutely correct.

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By: VTC https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193851 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 20:17:53 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193851 You… you put the insults in the title. What you are doing here is the opposite of helping. When you use insults, body shame, fashion shame, etc. in your criticism of someone, you don’t change that person’s mind. Instead you push them away from the viewpoint you’re encouraging. Who wants to agree with the person who’s being shitty to them? Because it is really lousy behavior. A bully for a good cause is still a bully. You need to do better than this.

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By: Jason Alt https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193765 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 20:03:44 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193765 In reply to Ryan Overturf.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png

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By: Jes Golbez https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193699 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 19:53:48 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193699 I just want to add in 2 cents

1. % of participants are female. 10% seems *way* too high for me. Here in Vancouver, there are hardly any female players at sanctioned events, and we have a pretty strong population of MTG players. My wife is often the only female at any event we attend.
GP Vancouver was maybe 2-3% female, from my estimate… Larger prereleases might have been more like 5%, if that.

2. On the other hand, my wife’s experiences have been pleasant ones. She has yet to run into any real sexist situations, or any of these weird anime alters. Even the teenagers we’ve played against don’t seem to have made any issues about ‘playing a girl’. Good luck, or just the city we’re in?

3. What is wrong with people? That tweet/msg… ugh…

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By: Zach https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193693 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 19:52:52 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193693 Maybe I don’t know about lisps or speech impediments in general, but aren’t lisps involuntary? That seemed pretty thoughtless in an otherwise good article, why lump that into crack-pants and neckbeardery? Doesn’t MaRo have a slight lisp?

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By: Ryan Overturf https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193431 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 19:11:54 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193431 In reply to Jason Alt.

His point is just that the first amanedment, generally, protects your right to be offensive- though there are some exceptions when speech acts lack any actual value, but I digress.

If the following point is to be that people can berate you for your speech or discriminate against you because of it, then your wording is off when you say it’s not protected by the first amendment.

The bottom line is that the first amendment does to a reasonable degree protect your right to be offensive, and that correction is more than a nitpick. It’s constructive feedback on the fact that your statement is inaccurate, though your argument is still compelling- it would just be more compelling were everything stated correctly.

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By: Caezar https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193375 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 19:05:11 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193375 Good way to start the conversation, Jason. As a guy in technology, I see these problems extend from the gaming community into peoples’ professional lives. Over the past two years I’ve worked pretty hard to open similar conversations with my female friends and colleagues, and I’m happy with the results. Those women are my allies. I feel comfortable asking them for a different perspective on issues and ideas in my life. They feel similarly toward me.

I’m not much for jumping through hoops to make other people comfortable, but I learned one amazing trick that I think men should understand. The idea is called proofing, which is setting another person up to have a reason to be the next speaker in a small group. If you are outside your gaming store talking with a few guys and a woman you know approaches, just say something like: “Hey guys, you know Annie, right? She and I were talking last week about how Brimaz sucks in this deck. Didn’t you think Master of the Feast was the better choice, Annie?”

Some subtleties: talk with each ally ahead of time and talk it out. Make sure she knows you, knows what kinds of topics you are going to act like she knows about, and that she wants the favor.

Say something like “I know sometimes it can be helpful if friends give other people a reason to listen. If you would like, when I introduce you to a stranger, I could gently point out that you know what you’re talking about.” If she agrees then follow up with “If I do it in a way you don’t like, just tell me later and I’ll figure out something better.”

If she wants to know what’s in it for you, then just say “exactly the same thing. If you’re talking with other women and I walk up, could you give me an easy ‘in’ so I don’t look like a bumbling idiot?”

With a little practice, it’s very easy to use this method to set up a platonic atmosphere where ideas and thoughts get all the attention. Alliance is profitable for everyone involved, no matter their gender or sex.

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By: Jason Alt https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193302 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:52:31 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193302 In reply to Trek Barnes.

the First Amendment protects you from the government abridging protected speech. It doesn’t protect you from the consequences of your offensive speech outside the sphere of the government’s influence. The First Amendment didn’t protect Gilbert Gottfried from being fired by GEICO for making a Tsunami victims joke. It didn’t protect that guy from Duck Dynasty from being fired for saying something that it wasn’t at all surprising a guy from Duck Dynasty said. In the context of basic lands at a hobby shop where no one brought up the government at all, I’m really surprised you let an offhanded comment derail you like that.

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By: Trek Barnes https://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/10/white-knights-and-neckbeards-on-growing-up-and-hostility-to-women/#comment-193176 Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:32:15 +0000 http://www.quietspeculation.com/?p=52320#comment-193176 i liked it and was agreeing completely until you had to mention the first amendment.

Yes, it does protect your right to be offensive. Inoffensive speech rarely needs protection. However the first amendment protects your speech from the government, not from social repercussions.

The government cannot say for me to not draw tasteless anime babes on my cards, but my local game shop has the right to tell me I cannot use them in their store.

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