menu

LSV Nails the Issue of Gender and Discrimination in the MTG Community

Are you a Quiet Speculation member?

If not, now is a perfect time to join up! Our powerful tools, breaking-news analysis, and exclusive Discord channel will make sure you stay up to date and ahead of the curve.

You know that picture of Benedict Cumberbatch going around?

this-is-what-a-feminist-looks-like-t-shirt-2-537x402

Yeah, that's the one.

I really like this picture. Too often, feminism is viewed as a dirty word with tons of baggage, but it's really a very simple viewpoint: women should be given the same opportunities as men in the social, political, educational, and employment spheres.

I'm a straight, white male. It's hard to write about a topic like this, because even though I unequivocally consider myself a feminist, I have very little if any first-hand experience with discrimination. The absolute last thing I want is to be disingenuous about such an important and sensitive topic, so I usually just keep these viewpoints to myself.

Still, a couple weeks ago, I had the (unhappy) occasion to link a 30-year-old man (?) to Patrick Chapin's excellent article "Words Mean Things" in response to him trying to  use the asinine argument, "They're just words," when attempting to justify using "gay" as a pejorative. Can we just be clear here? Discrimination and hateful speech of any type is not cool, and unless your social circle is a hive of scum and villainy, most people will not like you if you talk like a child. And if you speak that way, childish is the best that can be said about you.

I spoke up in this instance, and though I don't speak up 100 percent of the time, I've been making an active effort to try to speak up more.

To that end, in last week's episode of Limited Resources, Luis Scott-Vargas tackled this very issue. An LR listener recently ran a poll that showed a result of only three percent of LR listeners being women. This is obviously concerning to Marshall and LSV both, but in discussing the issue, Marshall made a comment basically saying that people can say whatever they want with their friends, but everyone should be cool at their LGS regardless. LSV had some great things to say in response to this. Rather than paraphrase, here's a transcript of the highlights:

When you say people should be how they want with their friends, I actually don't fully agree with that. I think you have—and this goes for me too, completely—we are voices in this community and I think we do have a responsibility that if we observe behavior that is unwelcoming or something you'd consider—regardless of who you're discriminating against or regardless of what you're doing that makes other people uncomfortable, I think you should say something. Like, if you're at a local game store and someone makes a racist joke or a sexist joke, or whatever, I do think that you have some responsibility to say something.

...

The people who have good intentions but don't speak up really are part of the problem, as well. If someone's doing something that makes other people there uncomfortable (you know, within social norms...)... The people who are impacted by situations like this often don't feel that they have the power or voice to speak out, and you and I are people who do have that. And a lot of our listeners do, too, especially if you're, well, you know, a white man, you have a lot more ability to say these things. More the man part especially in Magic. And I think you should say something. I think by sitting and not saying something, you're kind of enabling it. And that leads toward the kind of destructive environment that is in my assumption what drives women out. Again, I can't speak fully to this, because as someone who hasn't faced really any kind of discrimination in Magic, or really outside of Magic, it's not my place to say what exactly is happening that's causing this, but there is this imbalance. It's not for no reason, right? It's not just random that there's 94 percent men listening to this podcast.

I cannot endorse this viewpoint more highly. Don't just accept someone's using hateful language. Say something.

Avatar photo

Danny Brown

Danny is a Cube enthusiast and the former Director of Content for Quiet Speculation.

View More By Danny Brown

Posted in Free, Opinion

Have you joined the Quiet Speculation Discord?

If you haven't, you're leaving value on the table! Join our community of experts, enthusiasts, entertainers, and educators and enjoy exclusive podcasts, questions asked and answered, trades, sales, and everything else Discord has to offer.

Want to create content with Quiet Speculation?

All you need to succeed is a passion for Magic: The Gathering, and the ability to write coherently. Share your knowledge of MTG and how you leverage it to win games, get value from your cards – or even turn a profit.

17 thoughts on “LSV Nails the Issue of Gender and Discrimination in the MTG Community

  1. “…most people will not like you if you talk like a child. And if you speak that way, childish is the best that can be said about you.”

    It’s sad that while people have been starting to be aware of many other kinds of discrimination, discrimination against children is still second nature to most people. It’s in our everyday speech, and every time somebody blames it on the children they get away with it. I personally believe this is the worst kind of discrimination, as children are nearly powerless to fight back.

    1. This is interesting and I have literally never encountered this notion before. Thanks for enlightening me a little bit today.

      This one seems really entrenched though, like you mention.

      “…most people will not like you if you speak immaturely.”

      Fixed. I also think that while the offenders may not be acting appropriately, it may exacerbate the issue to use such aggressive wording, so I also removed the second sentence.

    2. I can get down with this line of thought. It bothers the hell out of me when people are needlessly dismissive of children. That said, I used “childish” specifically because as a child, that’s how my peer group–including me–talked. Those of us who eventually learned the damage this type of speech can do grew up. Those who didn’t are basically still stuck in their childhood, the way I see it. I appreciate the viewpoint, regardless.

  2. I agree with LSV and the general point of the article regarding speaking up when you feel something is discriminatory. What I don’t understand is why a gender imbalance in the listeners/player base of MTG is considered to be indicative of an issue in the community.

    I can only speak from my own experience, and I have no doubt that there are crude, and unacceptable people in the player base, but I live in an area with a highly accepting community. I have witnessed, maybe, 2 incidents of behaviour I would consider problematic in 6 years playing in the area. Yet, the community here is still predominantly male (there are a number of women that play, but they mostly enjoy EDH and pre-releases). In my experience, with the women that I attempted to interest in magic, the limiting factors have always been either disinterest in the game itself, or the basic imbalance in gender itself (“I don’t want to be the only girl there”) rather than a fear of discrimination, or previous negative experiences.

    I am willing to accept that I live in a bubble, but the topic does interest me. Does anyone else have wildly different experiences? I guess, my basic question is whether a gender imbalance necessarily shows that there are issues within the community, or simply shows the demographic interested in the product?

    1. I guess the part of your anecdote I find most interesting is the comment “I don’t want to be the only girl there”.

      It may not be an issue with things the community does, but if that is an actual reason that women are not playing magic, then that is indicative of a deeper issue. Such that, to these women, there is something undesirable about a situation where there is gender imbalance. In a perfect world, gender imbalance would not be an issue (as in, women would be interested or not interested in magic based on the game itself, irrespective of the percentage of women that play). This is probably an issue that transcends magic.

      Also, is there something about the actual game of Magic (or card games in general), irrespective of community, that is intrinsically more attractive to males then women?

    2. “I guess, my basic question is whether a gender imbalance necessarily shows that there are issues within the community, or simply shows the demographic interested in the product?”

      This is a very good point. I’ve long been of the thought that you can’t “make” a particular group interested in a particular product. At the comic book and gaming store where I used to work, roughly 90% of the Magic player base was white (And totally not my crowd due to um…classiness reasons), and roughly 80% of the Yu-Gi-Oh player base was black. Only a handful of females were into Magic, and I can only recall one who was into Yu-Gi-Oh (Insert that gif of the girl being hit in the face with hot dogs here) Considering demographics of the area, that is extremely skewed for both games. Now, I’m not one to say why this is, but I can say that there is absolutely no way in hell that I, a 35 year old white dude would ever give a flying crap about Yu-Gi-Oh. My wife is very into theater. I think theater is about as interesting as watching paint dry. I am very into MMO’s, and she can’t be arsed with them. Neither of us is very likely to get the other interested in our respective hobbies. Girls at the shop where I worked flocked to anime and manga stuff, and guys generally didn’t.

      Now, as a 35 year old white dude, would I be interested in Magic if I were introduced to it now, as opposed to having been introduced to it when I was 15? Perhaps, perhaps not. (Likely not. I think the modern style of Magic design is very dull and boring.) I can’t even say that my inclination towards SciFi and fantasy even comes from a context of upbringing, because I literally had no friends for most of my childhood, and we lived so far away from civilization, there was no escaping into comic books or D&D or whatever else. (Another thing that gripped me and never let go though, even though when I first got into comics, I had the chance to get to a shop just a handful of times per year) There was little to no exposure to it, outside of my dad watching Star Trek.

      Some things just grab individuals, and through extrapolation and mankind’s social nature, groups. I’m not very likely to go up to the guy who lives next door to me and sell him on the virtues of listening to Black Sabbath on vinyl, though the people I eventually befriended (through Magic, yay!) in high school would be far more receptive, because we’re friends through common interests, because that’s how people be.

      I find it amusing though how it’s all-so-important to practically beg for women to pay attention to “nerdy” things, but when it comes down to having more women involved in when it comes to more “roughneck” things, eh, no one cares. We have just GOT to get females involved in Magic, but no one bats an eye at the lack of female auto mechanics or railroad workers. Where is that line drawn? It’s all a little ridiculous, and in all honesty, it looks pretty sad. We’re only making ourselves look bad by pandering. Perhaps because I’m just as happy shooting orcs in EverQuest as I am slinging a wrench and fixing a car, the double standard stands out a bit more.

      Now, with that thought in mind, don’t be a jerk. If a little kid is sitting across the table from you, be cool to them. We all started somewhere too. If a girl is sitting across from you, don’t be an obnoxious neckbeard.

  3. The biggest smoking gun I’ve read, strangely came from the book “Dataclysm”

    He made a data map that showed one of the biggest groups of cross posting with the MagicTCG sub reddit was Men’s Rights Activists.

    The issue is very serious I believe.

    1. When you say “Men’s Rights Activists”, are these a group of people that seek equality for men or a hateful group that seeks to lower the equality of other groups. If it’s the first I have no problem with it. To be completely non prejudice any group regardless of the amount of prejudice they receive are entitled to a support group just as any other.

      1. There aren’t now nor have there ever been groups pushing for equality for men specifically. Men are privileged, we don’t need activists.

        1. I don’t know that I agree with the absolute statement that there are no “groups pushing for equality for men specifically”. While you are right that in the vast majority of cases men are privileged, there are still some instances where men are not privileged. Just searching men’s rights activists brings up the wikipedia page that has some interesting examples, such as domestic abuse and child custody.

          I am not trying to overshadow issues that women or other groups face, but I am not sure about any statement that says that men in no way need activists.

          I agree with Target, I think that equality should be sought irregardless of group.

  4. Please, for the love of God, don’t mention the phrase “straight white male” in any relation to Magic ever again. Stop dragging meaningless issues where they do not belong.

    1. Have to agree with Stan. I see no reason to include sexual orientation in this article. This is one about gender identity and the imbalance between the two in Magic, not orientation. But don’t take the feedback personally – it’s an easy trap to fall into and I’m still learning myself.

      That being said, I’m glad the gender imbalance is at least getting some discussion. We first need to be aware before we can correct.

      1. I do get what you’re saying, but discrimination is discrimination, and nobody should be made to be feel uncomfortable for who they are, especially from groups so traditionally underrepresented. I’d argue these two plights are similar in more ways than they are different, (probably) especially in the Magic community.

  5. As a female player in a community that has predominantly male players, I have run into a little gender discrimination, also I run into age discrimination. (I’m 50 years old) Because I love to play magic, and don’t mind being the only female in a room, I’ve taken it upon myself to educate the guys in my community. Oftentimes, I will run into someone who has never played me. They look at me and see, somebody’s mom,(which I am) and figure that they will have an easy win. Whenever this happens, I do my best to “wreck them”. So far I’ve found that to be a good strategy, I don’t always win, but the guys take me seriously after that. I prefer EDH, and casual, and generally do not play to win, (I’m a Timmy player) But I Have a habit of playing against top-level players, so my game is good. Aside form that, I’ve found the magic community to be a great bunch of people and I’ve made some terrific friends playing.

  6. Start by watching for enabling behavior right here at QS. A few months ago, I pointed out some belittling language in a Jason Alt article and got nowhere. Not sure if I can find it again, but admins ought to be able to search the site archive to find it.

Join the conversation

Want Prices?

Browse thousands of prices with the first and most comprehensive MTG Finance tool around.


Trader Tools lists both buylist and retail prices for every MTG card, going back a decade.

Quiet Speculation